I’m very very embarrassed that my child hits so be gentle

[Fastertimer]

She is 12 and year 7 being assessed for adhd/asd. We’ve alsways had problems, she can be the loveliest child ever, but sensory issues and certain behaviour issues raised flags for me but everyone said she would grow out of it. It wasn’t picked up in primary apart from one teacher. She’s very smart top set child, but has started to be a school avoider so problems with that now, she has friends, lots of friends but when assessing her the psychologist said he was going to consider asd based in another stuff and thinks she socially naive. I only asked for an adhd assessment. I didn’t think asd as she has many friends etc

yesteday I had to fill fill out a form for her and I made a mistake she took the pen and stabbed my arm, and elbowed my arm really arm and today it’s swelled up. She said stop being dramatic, I barely touched you!! then went off to her sleepover , we wouldn’t stop her she was start screaming and physically and mentally I couldn’t take her her meltdowns so she went to her friends house, and my two sons both asd were there and didn’t want to cause more of a scene so before anyone says why did you let her go I was in agony and my boys needed me and a calmer house.

this isn’t the first time she has hit me hard, she kicked me hard on the legs a few weeks ago for me saying she tans nicely but she turned on me in a rage and said I don’t tan I j burn!

my legs still ache and they were bruised. She has lashed out before. I’ve been having aches and pains for ages and even asked for blood test so I am being assessed, I’m now nearly 50 so no spring chicken here and my body isn’t what it used to be. Also I do a physical job so sometimes I’m more achey than normal so her elbowing me on the arm her lile hell but she made out it was hard.

a few months ago I ended up with heart palpitations in A&E she was texting me she loved me and the nicest she’s ever been.

im now Sat with an ice pack on my arm nearly 24 hrs later as it seemed to have swelled up. . She’s still at her friends and if I’m honest I love her so much but I’m at peace right now without waking on eggshells.

the school are threatening suspension, she doesn’t care, she calls me vile names and I’m so upset. I’ve gone so wrong yet I’ve tried everything. In her initial report it said something about PDA which explains a lot about a lot but I don’t know how to handle her anymore.
my 7 year old son also asd hugged me and and I’ll never hurt you mummy l, he’s seen his sister speak to me as well, she doesn’t hit her brothers. Winds them up yeah but never hurts them. I’m the only one, she did grab my mother by the neck once and my mum was shocked at her behaviour. She loves my daughter and has always treated her well and my daughter loves her. I’ve been spat at and just so many things, not everyday and we’ve had lovely times and although a challenging child she’s turned much much worse, her name calling me the most disgusting things and physically hitting me, she’s hit me before in primary. and she’s been wonderful when I was sick in bed once and making me tea and checking one me but she’s like Jekyll and Hyde. I don’t know if therapy would help? Anything because she’s oniy 12 now!! I can’t take years of this. I don’t know what to do?

Thank you for this, I’ve never heard of PDA. I appreciate your taking the time to answer. I can only apologise to @Fastertimer for my ignorance. I hope that you can find some kind of resolution for your family.

The pda society have some great resources

Ok, let’s get real and reread the op where it states the child has PDA.

In this case reacting as you would with a NT child (who is unlikely to hit their mother anyway) will lead to escalation of the behaviour.

Im sorry that you're tired and walking on eggshells, but this behaviour has escalated to this point, because you have not efeffectively disciplined this child for her violent actions.

I'm sorry but going to a sleepover should have been the first thing to not happen. I can't believe you just let her walk out of the door.

Grabbing an elderly woman by the neck - that is bordering on psychotic. Kicking you, stabbing you with a pen... what happens next time she's stood next to a knife and gets angry? She's going to seriously hurt you one day or kill you and she will end up in prison or a mental institution... not getting help/intervention is not a way of helping her. You're just avoiding the problem and letting it go, stop minimising this and saying "oh she's so lovely at times" you sound like you are being abused by a partner in a relationship.

What does her father do? He sounds like he needs to step up and step in if you are feeling yourself hitting a wall.

I'm sorry for being quite firm, but I'm really angered by this behaviour on your behalf!

Sorry to hear this. It sounds like both you and your daughter are going through a really hard time. You are her "safe person" which is why the behaviour is directed at you. It is not your parenting, or her fault, but you are dealing with a tricky set of circumstances that will call for particular strategies as increasing the pressure by e.g. consequences, punishments and rewards will increase her anxiety and make things worse. In addition to the recommendations above for looking up Ross Greene/ The Explosive Child, and PDA society, I would recommend looking at the resources on "Newbold Hope" www.newboldhope.com/ and the "Newbold hope family support group" on Facebook. There are no quick fixes here but things will improve over time. I do feel concerned for your immediate health - if your arm is swollen and/or red that needs checking out urgently in case of infection is a walk in centre/ urgent care available tonight, or emergency GP appt tomorrow?

@Hufflemuff the child has PDA, a type of autism, a disability.

Your reply is, I’m sure, very well meaning, but it’s very unhelpful.

I'm aware and my comment still stands. I also have a child with ASD and ADHD but there is no way I'd let them stab me and walk out the door to a sleepover.

From this thread, absolutely nothing. She gets upset but lets the girl have what she wants as it’s easier, especially if what she wants is to leave the house. Understandable perhaps but not remotely helpful.
The OP urgently needs help with this as it’s already completely out of hand and she’s only 12. This could become very dangerous, very quickly.

I get a lot of the posters here going on about ASD and PDA, and while, yeah, these might be some factors at play, we’re now talking about a person rapidly approaching adulthood with seemingly v little in the way of being able to function in it. Fast forward 5 years and this stuff will land her in seriously hot water. And before anyone sus she’s fine to everyone but her mother, the school is threatening suspension. Not good.

OP, I’m afraid it is your duty to address this; outside the safety of home, away from the mother that takes this crap, is a world that absolutely does not care about the why of her behaviour, only the what. Stabbing you in the arm, saying horrid things to you etc isn’t acceptable, regardless of the possible learning needs at play. If you believe there to be SEN then get her to the GP. But, in the meantime, there needs to be consequences for her actions, because that is the way the world works, and it’s our job as parents to prepare our kids for that. Violent people aren’t allowed to socialise freely. When you harm another person you need to make it right. If you’re unkind to someone, don’t expect them to do you any favours. Natural consequences, not punishments or chastisements or lectures. It’ll be really tough to begin with, possibly worse than it is now, but stick with it and she’ll soon realise you’re not budging. You can do it.

Agreed, there is some appalling advice on here. Please only listen to the advice of parents with an ASD/PDA child. Violence is incredibly. common in their safe spaces and needs to be handled delicately and appropriately. Please research Girls and ASD/PDA.

ASD/PDA is a disability. You can’t discipline it out of a person.
You can use strategies which help to provide an environment the child can thrive in, or you can completely ignore their disability in an attempt to meet the wishes of other people who know little about PDA or the difficulties in parenting children with this, and see how that goes.

I have a child with PDA, one with AuDHD, and one with ASD. The other two are a breeze compared to the one with PDA, it needs a completely different approach.

OP with the right strategies it does get easier. 💐

Edited to add: “If you believe there to be SEN then get her to the GP”. The op has already said she has PDA.

Without entering into a tit-for-tat of whose children have which disabilities, I just want to point out that natural consequences are part of the recommended toolkit for managing PDA, along with trying to maintain a low-anxiety environment, using indirect requests etc. Unfortunately, the OP finds herself in the present situation where assessment is still ongoing, and she has a 12-year-old who is violent towards her…yet with an apparently thriving social life. Being allowed out to a sleepover after stabbing someone in the arm does nothing for her, PDA or no. Agree you can’t discipline a disability out of someone - to frame what I said as that is pretty reductive. But to abandon all attempts to prepare someone for life and help them reach their potential, just because they have a SEN, is unfair and insulting to loads of people who live with these challenges everyday and thrive regardless of the uneven playing field.

Thanks for all your advice. I’m not making excuses for her but she doesn’t hit me regularly , it’s been maybe 5-6 times over the years but she’s a lot stronger now! She is nearly my height and weighs what I weigh as the Dr weighed her as I’m not very tall and I’m only 8 stone so last two times she has kicked me or elbowed me it hurt like heck! She claims it’s not hard and I’m dramatic, She started puberty at 11 and since starting secondary she’s definitely got worse. I used to put it down to hormones. She la asking me to home school her but I can’t with that behaviour. I’ve made two appointments to the GP and they wanted to check her bloody tests, and now I’ve got another one coming up. I tried to get one sooner and also a private Dr for an adhd diagnosis after initial consultation he told me he thinks there is asd and pda involved with presenting with complex neurodiversities. Camhms turned her down in year 5 when the school tried to help me although she wasn’t bad at school they could see there was some sensory stuff going on. I’m hindsight there was a lot of masking and one teacher in year 5 saw this as he worked in a Sen school and even mentioned to me was suspicious, I remember telling my mum and she was like no, she’s very smart she doesn’t have asd or anything shes just naughty.
This secondary School have tried to help but they don’t know what to do and have said suspension next. It’s a shame as they say she’s very bright girl, barely turns up for maths lessons these days and gets higher marks than kids who study hard so imagine how well she could do!! same with other lessons, she is very intelligent but struggles with focus, and concentration and they know this.

as for consequences we tried taking her phone off her once for throwing a washing basket at the back of my head from the top of the stairs because I asked her to get changed for girlguides, she told a friend we were hurting her and head teacher called me and spoke to her asking if she was safe, he said you can discipline her I said how? She goes mental, you can’t say a word to her ajd then claims I’m hurting her, I’ve never hurt her. Anyway they got ger a support worker I was expecting a social worker to be honest given she said I was hurting her but she went to school everyday in primary and there was no issues aside from clothes and sensory so maybe they thought we needed a support worker. . All this has escalated in secondary. She’s constantly tired and does talk to me about stuff. She tells me likes her friends but walks around on her own at times, it makes her body hurt being at school, she literally isn’t getting in in secondary and I’m paying the price for this. We are doing everything in Getting help and her head of year even said I’m trying everything .

I am only just looking into pda since dr mentioned it in initial assessment and does seem what works for NT child DOES NOT WORK for Asd/pda and combined with adhd. I’m getting into support groups and looking to meet other parents with children who are similar it does seem they are going through very similar

Op, has she always been like this? Have you considered Pandas/pans? Just the aggression like this is very common

Never heard of that?

It may not be, but please look it up

That’s really tough. No advice to add but please get your arm looked at. X

While I think it’s important to consider ASD/PDA as a reason for this behaviour, it’s not an excuse. I say that as someone with ASD. She may find it harder than most people would to control this behaviour, but she has to find ways to do so or she won’t be able to function in society and will end up seriously injuring someone and possibly in prison. That’s the bottom line.

I’d also gently suggest that some of what you’ve described feels quite manipulative (saying you hurt her, etc) and the fact that she can clearly control this around her dad (who i assume is bigger and stronger) suggests that she’s able to control her aggressive behaviour to some extent. I’d be concerned that there were antisocial tendencies at work here too, and would be getting her to a psychiatrist ASAP, privately if necessary.

OP what behaviour does she exhibit at school, that they have threatened suspension?

You will get a lot of bum advice on AIBU because a lot of people are convinced that in order to stop a child being violent you have to punish and dominate them. When usually if your child is violent you have tried everything including the things you thought you'd never try, and it hasn't worked. And then it becomes a taboo as you've found and you'll end up in an impossible situation where if you say you've ever hit your child back or defended yourself or shouted then people claim you have traumatised them, whereas if you explain your trauma informed approach (because people generally come to that at some point too) people claim you are too soft and you'll never get out of the situation that way. You can't win when people have made up an imaginary solution in their head.

I'm so sorry that you're in this situation. Do look for the advice from people who genuinely have experience. You might ask for this to be moved to the SEN boards, although visibility is lower there.

I think parents of children with violent and challenging behaviours ought to be offered de-escalation and safe restraint training. It would improve safety for everyone around the child, including the child themselves. The problem seems to be that if your child is young, then it's assumed that you can handle any violence with no issues, and if your child is older and they are still having violent reactions/tantrums that is a total taboo because most people assume one of two things - either you have completely failed as a parent, or your child is a total bad egg. When neither is likely to be true. Maybe in extremely rare cases. But it's not that uncommon for violence to be a reaction to SEN-related difficulties or stress. Which is not the same as saying all children with SEN are violent or SEN is an "excuse" for violence, but if violent behaviours are stress behaviours, then increasing stress by attempting to use behaviourism to control the behaviour is very unlikely to help. It needs to be handled very carefully.

There is a book called Who's In Charge by Eddie Gallagher, who is a therapist who works with children who are violent to parents, which is worth a look although it is ridiculously long, I have read most of it and he badly needs an editor to cut out 70% of the book which is made up of repetitive waffly opinions.

If you buy the book, skip straight to the chapter called "Acceptable and Unacceptable Behaviours" and read from there because it tells you what to actually do. If you want to read his observations on the patterns of children who are referred to his clinic, then you can always go to the relevant chapter there but that part of the book is 90% opinion and assumptions and I don't think it is especially helpful. The 10% observations is interesting, but not really necessary for the useful content of the book, which is where he outlines what approach he takes with the families who come into his clinic.

It is a behaviourist approach, but I think it is better than most because it basically shows you how to separate consequences from the moment of conflict, avoid getting into a protracted in the moment battle, be clear about the behaviour you are looking to change and it doesn't use fear/intimidation or pit child and parent against each other, which I think you can end up doing if you just try to "use consequences" in the way that most people think of doing so.

I do think it is possible to combine that kind of system (or a purely positive system targeting specific behaviours/outcomes) with more bottom-up approaches like building skills/relationship, understanding the nervous system/fight or flight response/window of tolerance and co-regulation, or reducing stress and demands on the child overall, even though those approaches usually warn against behaviourist approaches because they increase stress. I think if you're not targeting something like obedience or trying to impose control as your solution to the violent behaviour, it is less likely to be a problem, although it might not be right for all children.

This will only get worse. I've had 15 plus years of all this, violence, verbal and physical abuse, fear. From my DD being 5.

I've had to lock myself in my own room to protect myself from my daughter's violence, diagnosed with ASD/PDA.

So many police visits, SS intervention, multi agency interventions.

Get help now.

I’m so sorry. How are you all now? Is your daughter any better??

There is lots of talk of PDA , but you really a diagnosis of this before you start to treat her like she has it. Honestly, it sounds like a lack of boundaries and consequences rather than PDA, due to the level of control she has when harming you and immediately after.

If she doesn't do it to other people, just you and your mum, she can control it and she's choosing to hurt you. If she's choosing to, she can choose not to.

It's very easy to jump to conclusions "she must have PDA, therefore there's nothing I can do" but you can't switch a condition like that on and off. Maybe she's NT but just not being very nice, in which case you can and should give her consequences for her behaviour.

Maybe it's her nervous system being so stressed all the time she's teetering on the edge of 'fight, flight or freeze' all the time, and is so consumed on it not happening with other people that is set off very easily with safe people. My daughter is like this, very high anxiety is very common with ADHD or ASD girls. My DD is 7 almost 8, but to an outsider still tantrums like a toddler, whereas in reality she's highly emotionally dysregulated and typical 'behaviour strategies' are pointless, because she's calm enough to listen or respond. Sending support, it's bloody hard !