To kick DP's brother out

[Penelope55]

Apologies in advance as this will be a long one — but need to properly explain the details to get some much-needed advice! I am not a mum yet but love mumsnet and can't think of anywhere better to get some impartial advice — totally ready to hear that I am BU.

So here is what happened: DP and I (both in our 20's) have lived for 3 years in a 3-bedroom house in a very sought-after area. We each have our own bedroom in the upstairs floor as I usually need to study and work well into the night and need my own space (I also often have family and friends overnight). On a different floor there is a completely independent room with a large terrace and an en-suite bathroom. Throughout the years we have always lived with friends renting that room and have always had a very fun, lively envoirement as we are not couple-y at all and enjoy sharing the flat. Recently, there were some huge probelems with the flat (ceilings etc) which meant a renovation was needed and our dear friend had to move out. Me and DP came to an agreement with our landlord and have carried out these renovations in exchange for a reduced rent. This means the contract is now under our name with a clause which allows subletting and we also have a very very good rent for a 3 bed flat in our area. Whilst we can afford the new rent just us two, we always thought of getting someone else to rent the downstairs room but were in no rush and were hoping a friend would move in a few months.

A few months ago, DP's brother got a job in our city and asked DP if he could move in. We were very happy and immediately said yes. Because he is family, we also agreed on a very low rent, so we shared with him our discount (which we got only through investing thousands in the flat) and gave up the really nice room and terrace as well as one of the bathrooms (the largest one in the flat). This was no issue at all and we were so happy to have him! We got on really well and had some great times. Fast forward around a month and he meets a girl, let's call her B. After going on a couple of dates it gets more serious and she comes over to spend the weekend as she lives in a different part of the country: she is lovely and we all get along. Obviously, she can stay over as much as she wants. One week after this, she gets a temporary job in town and asks if she can stay. DP's brother 'asks' by saying 'B will be staying for a couple of weeks, could be a month because of a job, I'm assuming that's okay?'. For us it was no problem at all since it was temporary. She moved in and started the job which lasted 5 weeks. After the 1st week they started officially dating and by the end of it, it became very clear that she had no intention of leaving and that she was looking for a permanent job in town. They never asked us if she could stay, but did say they would like to talk about rent. She said she didn't want to have the obligation to pay rent until she found a job. We should have seen the red flags (there were others, like requesting we don't use the living room one day so they could have a romantic breakfast) but we didn't and agreed she could pay no rent for another month and then start paying a very small amount (mostly bills) from the third month onwards until she found a job. The catch is she never found one (or really looked for one at all!). She wanted a job in a very hard to get into creative industry, but she has no experience and a degree from years ago (DP works in this industry) and she wouldn't take anything else. I offered to give her my babysitting contacs or put a word in for her in a café and she refused. She said she didn't want to take any part-time work until she found her dream job (keep in mind she has never worked in this industry after university and was working in a cafe before she moved in with us).

DP got fed up with everything and had a chat with his brother asking what she is doing and basically ended up blurting out that she was taking advantage of everyone. This is not how I would have gone about it and it was absolutely the wrong way to approach the subject but, in fairness, it was a brother to brother sort of comment. DP's brother immediately told B, who locked herself in her room and didn't come out for the rest of the day and night. I had a chat with DP and we called a flat meeting the next day in which DP profusely apologised to B, explained himself and all around made amends. We all agreed to move on, accept apologies and get along.

The problem is that ever since this happened they have been ignoring us, eat every meal in their room, come out of the room only when we are out... This is especially B as when she is away we all have dinner and have lovely times. This has made me so incredibly anxious in my own home and I feel a sense of dread everytime I go down the stairs to the common floor. I attempted a conversation and all she asked me was for details of when we will be away. They have also gone for a holiday and left their terrace door open (street facing) as well as kitchen knives outside which was so dangerous as we only caught it a couple days later and have left the kitchen very messy when we were away (we are both very clean and tidy but happy to compromise within reason, we never negged them and do most of the cleaning, we just ask that they clean up after themselves). I don't know what to do but we just want to kick them (or her) out! Especially as we never agreed to live with B! We just feel so unwelcome in our own home and this has really taken a toll on my wellbeing especially as I am studying for very important exams and finishing my dissertation alongside working. What should we do? Would really appreciate some advice as we ultimately don't want to cause any issues in the family.

Just call another ‘flat mate’ meeting.
Tell them that since the last ‘clear the air’ meeting it has become evident that this is not working.
Tell them they have a month to find somewhere else - give them an exact date.

And that is it. Simple.

Good luck! xx

Your problem is with the GF, not DB really.
Tell her ( you and DP together) that it's not working for you and she needs to leave. If she has family to return to, then no reason why she shouldn't go tomorrow. I certainly wouldn't be giving her a month, or even a fortnight.If you felt like it, you could her tell that you've already explained the issues in the meeting you had, and nothing has improved, and that is why she needs to be gone.
Prepare yourself for scenes, and don't leave her in the flat without you or DP being there. She sounds just the type to cause damage as a way of expressing her displeasure. You don't owe her anything, and her behaviour shows she is not bothered about upsetting you, in fact it's probably designed to stop you from confronting her.

Yep, she needs to go. You could always say that you're aware that she no longer enjoys your hospitality so think it would be best for them to move on.

Op, it is not going to get any better.

Give them a weeks notice. No need for any further discussion
Get your dp to do the deed.

If they can move back to respective parents, I would give them 2 week’s notice so you have time to refresh decor and advertise to sublet the flat. You do not have to give them more, you could in fact kick them out this second. It might do them a world of good to go their separate ways. She sounds like a freeloader who has no intention of paying her way.

Tell him that you never wanted to live with another couple and they need to move out. She may move onto the next sucker if the tell isn’t as sweet.

Your DP was truthful with his brother, his gf didn’t like it, you called a meeting to clear the air but his gf won’t let it lie and making home life awkward. They left the house in a mess for you to clear up and left a door open.
One month’s notice, no second chances or be guilted into letting them stay longer! It’s not your DP’s b who the problem, it’s his gf. I would get DP to be blunt with b again, explain you both can’t live with her. Don’t worry about the fall out, he will soon have his eyes opened when he’s paying full rent and she’s still banging on about wanting to be a brain surgeon with three O levels to her name.
She is the type to latch onto a man, always have an excuse why he has to pay for everything and once they see through her, she moves onto someone else. Unfortunately for her, your DP called her out and she will continue to be passive aggressive and rude. No one puts baby in the corner!

I think you and your DP NEED to be the bad guys here on behalf of his brother. Just state it is NOT working and she (or both) need to go. Your DP could have a conversation with his brother one to one before hand just to let him know it's nothing against him and he gets he is in a hard position but if it's meant to be then they can each move back to parents and date from there and take things at a slower pace.

If they wouldn't be able to get a place together then that's ideal as it puts sone much needed brakes on their relationship.

I think you are inadvertently facilitating this toxic relationship and need to do the hard thing and cut that off. How she behaves from there will show the brother what she's really like and what she really wants from him.

Also this is your home, you're paying the bulk of the costs. Fuck feeling awkward in your own home!

NO WHITE LIES. They always backfire and are far less effective than the truth.

Give two weeks notice in writing, knowing that one month is reasonable so if you have to push it a week, you have the time. Tell them it’s not working and don’t be drawn on that. <head tilt> “I know it’s difficult but it’s our home and it’s not working.” On repeat. Don’t go down rabbit holes of explanation with them. Don’t feel the need to compromise or back down. If you do, it will become immeasurably worse.

She's a grifter, get rid, it's up to him what he does, not your problem. Sometimes, you just have to put yourself first. If he can't see the red flags, that are literally on fire at this point, then you can't help him.

Tell her to leave this weekend. She's a freeloader and you owe her nothing. As for the brother, he's probably best back at his parents'.

Two weeks notice. You don't owe them anything.

Agree with pp saying, 'This is not working for us. It's our home and you need to move out'. Any arguments simply say, 'We're not prepared to discuss it any more. We need you gone'.

They are adults and not your responsibility. DB can commute from his parents. CF gf can get to fuck.

Thank you everyone! I find this very helpful indeed. Have spoken with DP, and he is happy to go with with what I choose, however he feels that if he tells brother the full truth and kicks her out things could be irreperable in the family (I partly feel this too). He still thinks we need her gone asap so he has again suggested making up a max occupancy lie to say she needs to go. She has also brought her stinky dog over when her parents were away on holiday when this is clearly not allowed in our lease (I don't think our landlord actually cares at all as we have a wonderful relationship) — this was supposed to be for 1 day as an emergency and ended up being over a week so DP thinks we could use this too and just say our lease it too compromised by her staying as we never really agreed to have her permanently. Would this be a good option? Part of me feels we should say the truth but then she might guilt trip everyone and overstay her notice (she keeps saying her big break is coming and she has interviews lined up — I wish it was but it is NOT). Another part of me would also feel relieved if we could get out of this whole mess with that lie and hopefully not compromise the family dynamic as brother is lovely even if clearly immature. If we do end up going with the truth, how could we enforce an absolute timeline? I am afraid they would say they would find somewhere else but we live in London so it is hard to secure a flat / flatshare and things always fall through — how could we tell them to go if they just kept being unlucky with other options (they definitely would considering budget)? Maybe if it was landlord-related it would feel less cruel to enforce a deadline. Sorry for all the questions!! Will try to sort it all out and talk to them tonight or latest tomorrow.

A clear conversation is the only way to go and do it in front of the brother. Tell her that you never agreed to her living with you all permanently and you feel it’s unfair that with that in mind, despite you and dp being very understanding, you had to negotiate for her to contribute financially when all other occupants were already doing so. Say while you recognise your dp’s delivery of him expressing his unhappiness at the situation could have been better, ultimately she’s been told that people are unhappy she’s not contributing and she’s done very little about it because she’s not willing to compromise. Then tell her that because of that and because it’s so very clear from her presentation that she doesn’t want to be in the home or to try and rebuild relationships, she has 24 hours to vacate your property. If she makes promises to change etc tell her that ship has unfortunately sailed and she had the chance to change when concerns were raised before.
If do’s brother doesn’t go with her i’d then give it a few days to allow him to process everything and to work through any feelings he has and I’d sit down and have a heart to heart with him about how you feel this woman has taken advantage of you all. He may be receptive to it or he may not, but you then know you’ve tried all you can to support him.

Have another meeting, tell her that after the last one nothing has changed and you're now no longer happy to accommodate her, and want her gone by the end of next week. If, by any chance your DP's brother says 'If she goes, I go', then say, 'that's fine, we were going to tell you that it's time for you to move on too, but were happy to give YOU 3 weeks notice as you're family, but if you want to go now, that will actually suit us better, as we plan on making arrangements to rent out the whole place for the summer, so the last date for YOU to leave will be ....' If either of them say that's not fair, and she should be able to stay for 3 weeks too, just say 'Sorry, that's not an option, we gave you an opportunity to stay with us, on a virtually non existent rent, but you have abused that privilege and made us feel uncomfortable in our own home, so if you're not happy with a week's notice, you can leave NOW!!

As others have said OP, there will always be CF's who will take advantage of nice people, she is one of them, and the sooner she's out of your lives, and your DP's brother's the better. So stand firm, and don't take ANY nonsense from her!

Tell them to move but just emphasise the couple living dynamic not working. Two couples living together is a disaster waiting to happen as it almost always ends up like this. They will also be able to recognise it's not working and it's your rental and they need to appreciate the temporary situation has come to an end and find somewhere else.

Oh no, a similar thing happened to me in my pre-kid days when sharing a house. One of the housemates got a girlfriend who basically moved in without ‘officially’ doing it. She didn’t pay rent, ate our food, hogged the only tv for hours and hours on the weekend, and was just always THERE.

It was so awful, as me and DH raised it as an issue but no one else agreed with us. We ended up having a massive falling out with them, went our separate ways at the end of the lease, and never spoke to them again. We were good friends with them before, which was very sad.

All that to say, I understand how you feel. Get them out the quickest and least relationship-ruining way possible.

It sounds horrendously difficult, but I don't understand why you didn't nip this in the bud when you realised she was planning on staying? You didn't agree it, so why didn't you say something?

“we ultimately don't want to cause any issues in the family.”

You didn’t cause issues she and your BIL did… Your DP’s brother sounds quite immature but it really isn’t a you problem to fix let him go back to his parents and then hopefully B won’t want to go with him

Don’t make up a lie tell the truth - you don’t work as four people living together so best to go back as family and catching up as family outside of the home

Really unfair of your DP’s Parents to rope you in

NO, NO, NO!

Don't make shit excuses, feel awful, or hedge about behaving like wet lettuces!

She doesn't get to 'guilt trip' you unless you are weak as dishwater. She's absolutely taken the piss and you've allowed her to - now simply say clearly and simply 'It's not working out. You need to leave'. Don't chat shit about her parents dog, overoccupancy or anything else.

You owe her NOTHING. If DB gets upset say calmly to him, 'We've accommodated you and your rude girlfriend for long enough. You do realise that we are financially propping you up, don't you? She's made us feel uncomfortable in our own home and we don't want this any longer. If you think we should continue to be made to feel this way that's unreasonable. We all know this is not working - and it's OUR place. She needs to go'.

Exactly that.
A very short notice for her and a little bit more for him but with both of them gone by the summer.

Your DP's brother sounds like a good person, and he's being as taken advantage of and manipulated by this girl as much as you two are. She sounds like bad news.

I think you need to make sure brother isn't caught in the middle (he'll be manipulated to take her side) or isolated from family if you all make it obvious you don't like her. Keep brother close.

I'd call them both in (again so brother doesn't become the messenger and stuck in the middle. - although you can always forewarn him), and say firmly but kindly that the accommodation situation will be coming to an end in a month and so they'll need to find alternative accomodation. Don't become embroiled in a debate, it's been nice but it was always temporary and you now will be moving on to the next set of your plans which requires your home back.

Firm but peacekeeping. This situation will never end otherwise, she's got it sweet. You never know, she might find the relationship with brother less interesting when her free lodgings run out

You are absolutely right, and this was our biggest mistake. I think we were incredibly busy with life as DP was changing jobs and at the time had to be in everyday, I was also in everyday at university and worked from home in the evenings / weekends + also travelled for work. At first she seemed nice and honestly like she really needed a break from her home as her mum was sick. We genuinely thought she would be looking for any job, not just a highly unlikely industry job and thought this would take a week tops as it is London and quite easy to find something part time to keep you going! And when this happened we were planning on increasing rent accordingly and would be okay with her staying. It became a problem when it became clear she wasn't planning on finding a job and when DP brought this up that's when the absolute chaos started — it also coincided with us being more at home as I entered exam season and DP moved to a job where he did not have to be in as often: I imagine she did not like this and had quite accustomed herself to pretending this was their house without us noticing!

I also agree with everyone else that we should propably not make excuses and just make it clear she doesn't get to punish everyone just because she didn't like something which was said and she must go asap. Will discuss with DP! Any advice on how to make the deadline clear, for example if she asks if she can stay until they find somewhere else in town? She has been called in for an interview and if she gets it, it would feel particularly harsh to have her go with little notice as she cannot commute from parents home. I feel like everyone is telling me what I need to hear (thank you!) but would hate to go against DP's intuition and create huge family drama (although he would definitely have my back and is happy to go my way)!

The trouble with your white lie is that it doesn’t address the core problem which is her and her behaviour so you'll find her “staying over” lots even after she’s moved out. Which could end up being worse than the situation youre now in

Hi ... I'm afraid this current arrangement isn't working for us. I don't feel like I can relax in my own home, and I need to be able to do that to feel safe and happy. I'm glad we were able to help you out short-term when you needed it, but now it's time to move on. Shall we say by the end of June? Brilliant. I'm sure you don't want to outstay your welcome.