Part 2 - To as if you are not a Christian , what non Christian values you live by

[Parker231]

Follow on from the earlier thread

What aspects of Andrew Tate do you think are compatible with doctrines which hold that his behaviour is deeply disordered. Many of the young men are there in reaction against Tate-eqsue liberalism. Against limbic capitalism, against porn, throwaway culture, using people as a means to an end. Andrew Tate is about as far away from Catholicism as it is possible to get!!

Yes I do reject it, Who are these older British Christians you speak of? There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms. What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church? Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised? Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

I would like to remind you that Andrew Tate is a Muslim

Highlighting your posting style isn’t rude, dismissive, uncivil or goading. I haven’t called you out on this publicly until now, but your record of using the laugh emoji reaction on some of my posts tells me all I need to know about why you post the way you do. I’m confident enough in my beliefs to post and debate them; perhaps you could do all posters the same courtesy :)

I support my gay daughter and her girlfriend. Our church didn’t and responded with asking her youth group to pray for her to be healed. We left the church.

I have faith there is a god but I don’t think he’s an arsehole. I’m kind, empathetic but not forgiving - forgiving the guy who attacked and raped me is not something I need to do.

This post feels to me like the online equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la".

If you really want to know what misogyny and a sense of victimhood might have to do with joining a church, then read the research. There is plenty out there.

But you don't actually want to know, do you?

On the first thread, you felt like you'd like to see a return to society of a few generations ago.

Lots of young men feel similarly, but likely for different reasons to you. Your concerns seem to be more to do with transgender ideologies and euthanasia but, for a lot of young men, they see women's rights as the problem, and want a reversion to traditional gender roles and a society that is more male-centric.

I dont think its a coincidence that the young men who are suddenly finding their Christian faith, in the US, are those who feel that society victimizes them and are expressly anti-feminist.

You might think that these things are antithetical to your understanding of Catholicism or Christianity (though I do note that the Bible, New Testament included, does contain passages that seem to assert men's position over women).

I cannot find studies specific to Catholicism, in terms of the beliefs and motivations of the young men whose interest in the Church is surging. At the moment, all we can say with confidence is:

1. Young men in particular are becoming more engaged in Catholicism and Evangelical churches (other Churches are continuing to see a decline);

1. In US-based Evangelical churches, the young men who are joining show a high instance of misogynistic beliefs, and a belief that society is against them.

Were I a member of a non-Evangelical Church that was seeing a sudden surge of interest from young men specifically, I would be concerned that the basis may be similar to the basis for the increase in Evangelical churches.

Again, data is limited, but the data we do have coupled with the demographics of the new-converts would, to me, suggest that misogyny is a very relevant factor, and far more likely than your speculation that it's a rebellion against Atheist parents.

I feel like you a persistently misrepresenting me.

Who are these older British Christians you speak of?
On the last page, I posted an article by a British Christian writer who was enthused about the uptick in interest, but concerned about the likelihood that misogyny among young men was among the contributing factors. Here are a collection of other recent articles, all from UK-based Christian sources, discussing the issue (and postulating, from their perspective, how to solve it):

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2023/17-march/features/features/awkward-or-absent-the-problem-of-boys

https://www.affinity.org.uk/social-issues/andrew-tate-christian-incels-and-biblical-solutions/

https://www.premierchristianity.com/columnists/every-christian-man-needs-to-play-their-part-in-fighting-misogyny/5632.article

There's no way any Christian would not welcome young people joining the church, men or women with open arms.
And I never said that Churches weren't welcoming such young people, or that they should not. I'm saying that if, as seems likely, the increase in misogyny is one of the driving factors causing young men to become interested in the church in the UK (as in the US), that churches will likely wish to be live to that possibility so they can address it in whatever way they see fit. I would have thought through education, not turning them away.

What has Misogyny and a sense of victimisation got to do with joining a church?
In the context of US Evangelicals (which is the only context in which I can find any studies exploring why there is a surge in interest from young men in particular), those young men show a high incidence of feeling victimized by modern society and a high incidence of misogynistic views (some extremely misogynistic). I.e. we know there is a correlation between young men with those views and those who are joining Evangelical churches.

(Incidentally, the source I posted discussing that correlation, in the US, was also a Christian one)

In the UK, we don't know have studies on the motivations of those (mostly, young men) who are suddenly finding an interest in Christianity, though we do know the UK surge is limited to Presbyterian (Evangelic) churches and the RCC, and not seen in the CoE (I dont know what to make of that).

Victimisation of what and what is the church going to do to stop these men feeling victimised?
They consider that men are victims of modern culture, but not much more detail is directly given. Given the levels of misogyny present in the same cohort, though, I think we can safely assume that they consider that feminism is part of what they feel victimizes them.

I would postulate that these young men likely see the church as an upholder of traditional gender roles.

Are there special male only Christian churches now that I've not heard of?

An organization doesn't have to be male-only in order to be (or perceived by some to be) misogynistic.

I'm going to have to at least try to check out of the thread a little for the next few days, as I've been allowing it to distract me from real-life priorities.

I would, though, stress that I only chimed in on the issue of what is causing the uptick in interest in Christianity (mostly among young men) in response to a suggestion that it was rebellion against their atheist parents, and that every single link I have posted (supporting the notion that misogynistic grievance-politics are the primary driver) are Christian-authored.

I'm not attacking Christianity any more than those many Christian writers are, and I note that each and every one of them are expressing concern with the trend, not embracing it. If you're a Christian, and disagree with the analysis of those writers (because you dont agree the issue exists), fine. If other Christians cannot pursuade you, I doubt that I have much chance.

I don’t have to be a Christian to have strong values. They are probably the same values as you say you have except I don’t believe all the shite in a book from 2000 years ago.

I think I saw that for Gen Z men and women are diverging with men for the first time going to church more! It adds up to me. Women (young women) seem to be more liberal in general. Many young men feel entirely disenfranchised - it's hard to find a wife slave these days.

One of the many things I love about Mumsnet is that they introduced me to Tim Minchin. Great guy. (I'm an atheist.)

It was a "list your top three Xmas songs" thread. I'd never heard of 'Drinking White Wine in the Sun'. Just super.

My DS is, among many things (he calls it a portfolio career!) a busker, and he made an absolute fortune last Christmas with White Wine in the Sun!

Have you heard TM’s talk to a graduating class?

No! I love the other (more or less acceptably NOT NSFW) 50th anniversary video for the Sydney Opera House. I'll check out the graduating class talk.

(Your DS is clearly a credit to you...)

Here you go!