Part 2 - To as if you are not a Christian , what non Christian values you live by

[Parker231]

Follow on from the earlier thread

Is that your best attempt at an apology? And admission that maybe, just maybe, you are not right? Of course not. It follows your usual posting pattern. Post something ridiculous. Ignore the substantive responses. Change tack with a different post. It’s okay if you don’t have the skills, or don’t want, to debate but surely you see how silly that approach is?

Anyway, I’m not sure what you say carries much weight. The facts show that Christianity globally is growing at a slower rate than the global population, so in absolute terms it’s going up, but proportionally fewer and fewer people subscribe to the church. We are now all well under a third of the global population being Christian, trending towards only a quarter. It going up in Africa and South America…and down almost everywhere else. In some areas it’s increasing in young men…a worrying trend indicating perhaps increasing radicalisation. It’s also interesting to reflect that the areas it’s growing in are some of the poorest and most exploited in the world. I’d like to think that’s because the church is there doing good. Sadly, history shows that the church just likes to exploit the poor…

Also, atheism, by definition, doesn’t need a figure head. I’m surprised you need that pointing out. There might be particularly vocal atheists, but that doesn’t make them a figurehead, except in your mind.

Nowhere have a said you’re an idiot. I’m just in favour of debate and openness. It’s a shame you are not. And it’s easy enough to read your posts - there’s not a lot to actually dissect, and you did ask me the question. So I did you the courtesy of replying. Were you hoping I wouldn’t?

But don’t worry, you haven’t hit a nerve. I am happy with my take on the world, and I am happy that you are happy with yours. What I am not happy with is you telling me I am wrong about what I know and believe :)

Instinct, initially. We have certainly seem a rise in a sense of victimhood among young men (particularly young white men), with increased hostility towards women and feminism. That young men are the only group showing an increased interest in Christianity didn't seem likely to be a coincidence (particularly when anti-feminism and Christianity are both heavily associated with right wing politics, particularly in the US, which seems to be the leading the anti-women discourse and exporting it).

I hadn't looked into this before your post, but a quick Google does indicate that young, male Evangelicals in the US (the sole group in which Christianity is seeing a revivial) are far more likely to have a strong sense of victimhood than other demographics of beliver.

https://johnhawthorne.substack.com/p/about-those-religious-young-men

OK let's try again. Are morals relative?

There's some more data, from the same study, in this article, which shows a correlation between young Christian men and misogyny (a belief in repeating women's rights to vote).

https://medium.com/backyard-theology/why-gen-z-men-are-flocking-to-church-e1b2bdb64006

I'm not intending this to be an argument against Christianity, OP, but assuming you are not vilerantly anti-feminist (and I have no readon to think you are), I do think the demographics of the rise in participation in Christianity should be a cause for concern, not celebration, from your perspective as well as an atheist one.

I'm not!

as far as I am aware, Alex O’Connor and Richard Dawkins are still atheists-unless I’ve missed something? I don’t know enough about Hersi Ali to comment.

Not just boys, Im interested in why you think that. My child is getting baptised at pentecost her choice as a teenager. Her old school friend is also getting christened at another denomination. My friend, female, 42 has just joined a Baptist Church. Edit as just realised you said about feminism. What is that all about?

Here we go again…. I’ll humour you with a reply, despite the fact you don’t have the courtesy to do the same to other posters, but if your posting style carries on as before I won’t continue to engage, because it’s offensive (for which you haven’t apologised) and juvenile.

Of course morals are relative. They have evolved, as mankind has evolved, over hundreds of thousand of years to nurture, develop and shape society and civilisations. Many organisations over the years have tried to codify them and coral followers, but their popularity rises and falls. However human nature, our inquisitiveness, innate desire to be social, develop mutually beneficial relationships and create a framework within which to live transcends any made-up deities, as civilisations over tens of thousands of years have shown. They’ve all believed certain deities along the way…none have been real, and none have outlived the moral imperatives that are innate in mankind.

Am atheist. I think we all need to work out our own values, and also our values will be based on our life experiences.

I've found I'm happier when I try to live by principles like honesty and treating others as I'd like to be treated.

I also like some Zen principles like acceptance, tolerance, compassion etc.

I also find the philosophy of absurdism helps me deal with things like sadness.

Because data from many surveys shows a significant uptick in Gen Z men joining the church, and other surveys show Gen Z women to be leaving the Church in record numbers.

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/newsletter/young-women-are-leaving-church-in-unprecedented-numbers/

You do know there are loads of Christian denominations don't you? Evangelicals are more to the right I would agree but a lot of Christians are very left leaning. Obviously all Christians should not believe in abortion but that doesn't make them anti feminist it makes them pro life. I work with someone who is a staunch atheist, she is quite obnoxious and rude with her views on Christians. Another one said she thinks it's a load of crap but got married in a church! There are a fair few atheists who are hypocrits in that regard, happy to celebrate Christmas and have thier kid cast as Mary in the school play but then say it's a load of bollox. Each to their own but I don't think people should be rude to one another about beliefs / non beliefs.

By the way your polls are from Americans. We live in England. We don't have many evangelical churches here.

Just saw your edit, after I'd posted my reply.

Per the other links I've posted, the young men who are finding Christianity have a high incidence of a sense of victimhood and distinctly anti-feminist beliefs (including belief that women should lose the right to vote). At the same time, young women are turning their back on Christianity at a rate not previously seen.

You don't have to look far to see some Christians, particularly Christian women, expressing concern over this trend. The OP, who seems to have seen the top line numbers about growing participation in Christianity among Gen Z, seemed to believe it a rebellion against atheism (and, presumably, any good thing). I think that, whether you're Christian or not (but provided that you are anti-misogyny), the demographics of this increase should actually be a cause for concern.

Here's a link to an English study Catherine Pepinster
April 8, 2025
12:01 am
News
By Catherine Pepinster
Generation Z is leading a turnaround in the popularity of Christianity and a rise in church attendance in England and Wales, according to research published today.
A survey by the Bible Society and YouGov finds those aged 18-34, which includes Gen Z and Millennials, are newly drawn to Christian beliefs, with renewed interest not only in being part of a church but also in prayer, reading the Bible and social activism based on faith.
After years of declining congregations, the most dramatic increase in churchgoing, according to the research, is among young men. The image of churches being filled by elderly women and few others is no longer true, the society says.
Dr Rhiannon McAleer, the report’s co-author and Bible Society’s director of research, said: “We are seeing something we have never seen before.
“The results are pointing to community being the key. We are looking at young adults coming along with friends. They are not totally unchurched; sometimes grandparents have had an impact on their faith.”
The survey, The Quiet Revival, was conducted by YouGov among 13,146 people in England and Wales, and is an update on the Bible Society’s previous research conducted in 2018. It shows that in 2024, 5.8 million people were attending church at least once a month — 12 per cent of the population — compared with 3.7 million, or 8 per cent in 2018.
The most significant upturn was among the 18-24s (Gen Z) with 16 per cent of them attending church at least once a month; six years earlier, only 4 per cent did so.

Young men showed a marked increase in churchgoing, with 21 per cent in 2024, up from 4 per cent in 2018; young women’s attendance rose up to 12 per cent in 2024, from 3 per cent in 2018.
This revival is most evident in Catholicism and Pentecostalism, although the survey reveals a noticeable decline in popularity for the Church of England. Of those in the older Millennials category, 35 per cent say they are Catholic, 11 per cent are Pentecostal and 25 per cent identify as Anglican.

No, I don't live in England (nor elsewhere in the UK).

I'm using US studies because there are more of them, and they dig a little deeper. The (relatively limited) UK studies available show increased participation among Gen Z generally but with a much larger growth among young men in particular (occurring at the same time as the growth in the US). Given the general cross-border rise in right wing politics and misogyny among young men, I'd be staggered if there isn't significant overlap in the reasons underlying the US trends and the UK ones.

This seems to be the concern among some British Christians:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/apr/21/gen-z-men-church-community-activism-online-radicalisation

As you can see from the study in this country young women and men have increased. I think you are confusing American politics. I don't know about you but I live in England, we don't have many evangelical churches here. Most churches are not anti women at all. I am very happy for my child to follow her beliefs (catholic) , my aunt is a Baptist Church goer and they are lovely welcoming and family orientated. You are tarring the faith of millions on one sect of the church. I've not met any Christians here who think their church is anti women. Do you say this about other faiths that want women to cover up? I think your barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, that's the study I describe in my most recent post (and is the one referenced in the Guardian article).

It does show increased participation among young women but a markedly larger growth among young men. The study doesn't explore the reasons for the growth and says that more research is needed. There is, though, concern that the large shift among young men is likely at least part explainable by the same factors that explain the similar shift in the US: increased misogyny and a sense of victimization.

Yes they are, but Alex has migrated from quite a strident position against religion to a far more open and nuanced position. He's very popular among Christians, certainly I admire him a lot and enjoy his content.

"Richard Dawkins, a well-known atheist and author of "The God Delusion," has recently declared himself a "cultural Christian." He clarified that he does not believe in the Christian faith but feels at home in the Christian ethos and values living in a culturally Christian country.

Dawkins expressed his preference for Christianity over Islam, stating that he finds Christianity to be a fundamentally decent religion compared to Islam, which he views as hostile to women and gays. He has also criticized the promotion of Ramadan over Easter in London, indicating his discomfort with the increasing presence of Islamic culture in traditionally Christian spaces." (AI response when I googled Richard Dawkins cultural Christian)

I think you are being overly defensive. This thread is about Christianity, and I was addressing the OP's comment about what she believes to be driving the current, aparent revival in Christian belief. I'm not here to beat up on Christianity, and I don't need to critique (for the purpose of this discussion) other faiths and the extent to which they are or are not misogynistic.

No doubt, the increased religiosity among young people is multi-factoral, but the societal trend towards right wing politics and misogyny, particularly among younger people, is a cross border one. In the age of social media, it is highly likely to have significant commonality in its root causes.

In the US, where studies have explored not just the extent of the increase but the reasons for it, increased prevelance of misogyny is clearly identified as a factor.

The UK has, during the same period, seen increased religiosity in general but with the shift being far more pronounced among young men. The reasons driving this are yet to be studied, but clearly at least some, older British Christians think the factors causing growth in the US likely explain at least some of the growth in the UK, and are concerned by that. I do think its a trend that warrants greater analysis and one that should be a cause for concern (or at least, being "on guard").

I'm not trying to post a "gotcha", nor use the apparent trend as a stick to beat Christianity with, nor am I tarring all Christians. I dont think that's a fair reading of my posts at all.

I'm going to ignore your rudeness and goading. You might feel my disagreements with you have been dismissive but you can't even be civil.

So young men join the church and that's concerning but the increase in young women joining is not? There is no logic here. They are making up the reasons. misogyny and a sense of victimisation I've heard it all now

What do you mean by "on guard"?

Misogyny and a sense of victimization are very clearly among the drivers for the growth in participation among young men (and it is only among young men) in the US. Feel very free to review the survey data.

In the UK, there is cross-demographic growth, but it is clearly and obviously at its highest among young men.

You seem to be rejecting even the possibility that the factors driving the increase in the US could possibly be factors in the UK, too, despite the demographic similarities.

I fully suspect there is a connection, as do some British Christians (who have either expressed the need for concern or the need to model a more positive form of masculinity).

Presumably, you would not want to see a rise of Tate-esque views in your church.

If, as appears likely, the rise of Tate-esque misogyny among young men is associated with the high rates of young men looking toward Christianity, I would expect that most churches would want to change the mindset of those young men, rather than allow their mindset to (over time) change the church.

E.g., churches should try to best understand what is causing the uptick (and look to address it in a way they see positive), rather than uncritictly embracing it.