Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

[PurpleFairyLights]

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

Some will move across to big pharma always in need of doctors and hcps

I'm losing the will to try to help when you seem to argue back at help

www.jobs.nhs.uk/candidate/search/results?searchFormType=main&keyword=Clinical%20fellow&language=en# there's 907 fellow jobs currently on NHS jobs, granted some are post ct2 but many many aren't. There's many variations of the job title that can be searched for.

Apply to universities for educational teaching fellowships.

Gap year in oz, their hours are better, their pay is better, can do an msc part time if are set on doing that

Travel. Locum a bit to fund travel. That's what I wish I'd done

I don't see how a msc really helps beyond increasing their debt. There's better ways to fill time and make money

DDs friend applied to a large bank for a £100k+ job. Got it. Not Oxbridge. They encouraged him to get his friends to apply as they said they think doctors bring so many skills. He hates it though and is back applying for medicine jobs, but has saved a lot of money now so can afford to be picky (or go to Aus).

@Destiny123 you are not listening.

There are NO locums (not enough to pay bills).

Of the jobs currently on NHS website 53 are an option for an F2 (BMA looked into it last week). And most will close before they even get to apply (and be appointed to someone the consultant knows).

V v few clinical teaching jobs, mostly all gone.

Visas for Australia is expensive. And many doctors gave family commitments here.

International conferences are so so so easy to achieve. I have submitted the worst audits in the world and they've been accepted as they just want your admission fees, as you don't get it displayed unless you attend. Any big association in the UK counts as an international conference eg association of Anaesthetists

1st author publication.... write a letter to a journal that counts... tis stuff like this I didn't realise as an f2 but I could have achieved mega easily. If u want a peer reviewed case report, ask a consultant if they have am interesting case they want writing up, they'll have their name as 2nd author but you're still first. I got 2x first author publications by asking my cons for anything they wanted writing up

By default ur f3 job then gets u the "extra specialty experience" for the following years applications.

It's really not hard just takes a bit of effort

My f3 I did a teaching fellowship in icu and acute medicine, used the time to do a pgcert in medical education, be trainee lead for a national research project at the trust which got I think 4 points n so easy to do

My post ct2 gap year I took a specialty Dr job in anaesthetics whilst reapplying for a reg number

Not trying to be argumentative - just stating the reality for most F2s. There are obviously some jobs and some have got into training (my own DD is one). But it’s tough out there. No one is making up the figures of 20,000 unemployed doctors this August - F2, GP and consultants. It’s sad.

Again what happened in the past is not relevant for today.

Download locumsnest app there's tons. My trust is continually begging for icu non airway locums that f2s can do

Visas will be covered by the first month's employment

But im now done trying to help you now, moaning about the situation doesn't help noone

You are so behind the times. You are not helping at all. The options you offer are from a time gone by.

My DC has explored all of these options.

The only solution is government to create a lot of trust grade posts immediately that will help with waiting lists. Also all UK graduates must be given priority for doctor jobs and training places. IMGs already here should not be included in UK graduate prioritisation.

IMGs may choose to work in their home country but at least they have that option unlike UK graduates.

What remote areas calling out for F3s?

People in the UK may be willing to move but:

1. People from overseas who would like higher UK salaries and the chance of resettling their families are equally interested. Competition rates will be very high, with overseas applicants supported by agencies, who are making a fortune placing doctors in the UK.

1. Young doctors in those remote areas are disproportionately affected by the increased competition for training places. Not a lot of research going on. Lots of vacancies so more time just keeping the system going. Adverse contractual terms compared with England. Less access to the overachieving culture and knowledge of the system that you might find in a London teaching hospital.

DD, post lockdown, chose to head for a more remote area. She knows only two of her peers who have training numbers. As I said, one of the two F3 positions in the speciality she would like to go into will be taken by an excellent local candidate who has already spent a year or more locuming.

Yes there are empty training positions as the super high flyers who get training numbers are reluctant to commit to six years in a remote corner of the UK. (And some then switch to England as soon as they can.) But the department can't appoint their good F2.

(Though some odd things are happening as Consultants do their best to help either the brilliant F2 that they hate to lose from the profession, or their friends child....)

So for DD It is zero hours NHS bank or agency work. The oversupply is such that bank rates in DDs nearest Trust are now so low it is barely worth bothering. So she will sign for an agency there and bank in a Trust 40 minutes drive away.

And she is relatively lucky. Elsewhere in the country you can't live off the very limited number of bank shifts you are likely to get. The stories about doctors driving ubers are real and becoming more common.

The big problem with Australia is that it is effectively a one way ticket. It is probably harder to find a substantive contract in the UK if you are on the other side of the world, rather than visible as a regular and respected locum.

Why can't we be like every other country and put our own graduates first for training posts like every other country does - it is not racist as UK graduates comes from many backgrounds and cultures

There is not enough capacity for 20k doctors to go to Oz for an F3.

What about the doctors that cannot go due to money, family or health?

Exactly.

I want a spotlight put on those campaigning for IMGs to have equal access to UK grads.

Surely this needs to be investigated?

It is probably the high numbers of IMG doctors on the relevant committees of the BMA

@Destiny123 you have made some very helpful points. I am going to argue back though 😂

Very few of those 907 clinical fellow jobs are F3 posts. The NHS jobs website is a nightmare to search. It would be helpful if you could actually search (effectively) for jobs by level rather than having to trawl through all 907 jobs to find the handful you are qualified to apply for. It would be so easy to classify roles by the essential qualifications and years experience required to make it easier to search.

You kindly offered suggestions on how to maximise points for applying for training roles. That would be very useful. If you posted them here, I’m sure no one will argue back about that 😁 Although, they may not help any unemployed F3s 😂

That has to stop immediately. Why are IMGs dictating UK policy on workforce training? What other country would allow this?

How can this group allow NHS workforce resilience to be compromised?

The government has watched while 50% of our doctors are now IMGs. What happens if they leave the UK when they become consultants?

How will government compensate for the brain drain? Who will train our next generations of doctors when potentially 50% of consultants may return to their home countries?

I am more worried about this aspect of NHS resilience than any other.

Getting applications in when vacancies come up is one way having the support of an overseas agency is a real advantage.

They may be slinging in CVs regardless of whether the vacancy is suitable, which may explain why so many applicants ate later considered unappointable, but UK based applicants are having to do it on their own, with vacancies often closing within hours, and with no CV/job search guidance.

Bizarrely it would be far easier for her to go to an agency and get a job in Australia.

If the NHS would like to hire British trained doctors, they could ensure that they have application support to balance the support given to overseas applicants.

Surely the way to stop this is for government to immediately stop granting new visas and also immediately stop renewing visas until the situation with unemployed UK graduates has been resolved.

Why support UK graduates applying for jobs in a background of unfair competition with IMGs? You need to give UK graduates priority immediately.

Mumsneedwine may have more background but I understand that a few years back when the Government tried to clamp down on access to training, someone (BAPIO?) took them to court and won. Hence the caution.

People seem to be aware of the strength of the lobby (certainly someone I met, coincidently of Indian origin and involved in the current long term planning exercise, was happy to agree with my concerns) but the general view of the man in the street seems to be thst we are short of doctors so should be welcoming those who want to come here.

@Needmoresleep my children do work in the city, one at a law firm with more than 200 applicants for every job, the other in a financial institution with a mere 50 ! Obviously some ex doctors could find employment in the city but it's far from a panacea. 30000 law graduates apply for the 5,500 training contracts available in the UK every year, it's unlikely that all those contracts would be given to people who chose to study something quite different first although some obviously would. I' m only saying that it's way more competitive than medicine and even if having a medical degree does shorten the odds it won't give them anywhere near the 1 in 4 chance that they have as a resident doctor of finding employment.
Also there are many people on here whose children can't or won't study for a second degree to improve their chances of getting employment. Would they do a two year law conversion course?
You need to remember that everyone applying for top city jobs will have impressive degrees and perfect 'A' levels (which city firms do look at). My children knew that their Oxbridge degrees really didn't set them much apart. Most people applying were extremely smart.

Thank you awishes - i do understand how doctors are paid - I am one -despite what people on here have decided!

it is hard work but not brutal - brutal was 30 yrs ago 100-120hrs per week, which thank fully no longer happens but having been a resident in the last 10 yrs I now that better than you!
F1 and F2 years are hard - for may the first time they have had to turn up on time and do a full days work and the reality of what you have signed up for hits home. People are sick it is scary and you can not have your hand held vey 5 minutes - that is growth and development as you realise you now what to do without having to be told what to do every 5 minutes. Suddenly medicine is a scary reality, the "kudos" fades rapidly when faced with a sick person who could die.
They exception report and get paid for them on top of basic.
if the PA has more experience, like a nurse why should they not get paid more than a yr 1 doctor who has no experience?

No F1 is left in charge of 40 patients on their own, there is a hierarchy above them helping, they may not be holding their hand for the whole shift but they are on site and ready to answer questions - sorry the hyperbole is out of control.
The FY1s in the department I currently work in do 8-5 x4 days per week, and 8-1230 one day per wee, no unsocial hours and no weekends. Their F2 year is a major culture shock with nights, more responsibility etc
This does vary in different hospitals but that is no worse than many graduate jobs

Pay restoration is not going to happen if there is a surplus of doctors more likely a pay cut as supply outstrips demand. Start using the CPI not the RPI to compare salaries. The CPI being the one that everyone else uses for salary comparisons but not the BMA

Sorry it takes more than an extra hour in the morning and an hour at the end of the day to make it to 70 hours - week of nights can do but usually on a 1:8 +

Can't we just go back to the pre 2019 position? I thought Matt Hancock did it for a reason and now it needs to be reversed...quickly

Not sure what city jobs have to do with this but those people can go and apply to other employers and still work in banking, finance, law etc. Might not be in the City but still a job in area of choice. Doctors have one employer. That doesn’t seem to like them v much.

How has the UK become the postgraduate training country for the world at the detriment of UK graduates?

UK graduates cannot go to India to work as a doctor even if had language skills.

One employer and competing for jobs and training with thousands of IMGs.

Wes Streeting's 10 year plan will be too late for 2026 training places.