Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

[PurpleFairyLights]

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

Depends on the speciality. Each gives points for different things. This year, points needed was so high for several specialities, if you didn’t have an extra degree you needed to have at least presented at an international conference, been first lead on a publication and have extra experience in the sector. Pretty hard to achieve during foundation. Some people had all of the above and still didn’t get an interview for Paeds.

What did you do for your enforced year off ? Locums not an option to pay the rent so v interested to help others.

My understanding is that the 'panic masters' is because immigration rules have changed so F3 Posts are really hard to come by.

It's not done to enhance an application, though it helps, but to buy time. Ie a better option than unemployment (or minimal NHS Bank shifts) or an effective one way ticket to Australia.

Masters are out of the reach of many as so expensive. So is Aus. Unemployment is the option you face if a poorer doctor these days.

How did we get here ?

You are missing the point.

There are so few F3 jobs that what you experienced will not be an option in August.

Therefore some UK grads will have to do an MSc to fill their time or try to get a job in something else.

Which option do you think will help their application?

Totally agree.

Got here via a decision in 2019 and now very vocal campaigning groups that are not putting the UK graduates first.

How do we allow these groups to have so much influence?

Absolutely this. Not sure if doing a masters counts or do you have to already have the masters?

I was just reporting what I am hearing about choices being made by Cambridge F2s. (Of course we already know from Auchincar that Oxford F2s are doimg just fine and dandy.)

Switch to the City or take a masters. So much for all the demands for better equality.

The hardest hit will be those hard working bright eyed kids whose parents dont have the pull to work the system, or the resources to enable them to effectively take a year out to gain a few points and work really hard to get onto speciality training.

One thing we keep ignoring is that this group had their university years mucked up by covid. How many more barriers are they going to find placed in their paths.

If we want to retain young doctors, jobs need to be found now. Let them apply for PA positions? Set up some entry level house jobs, ring fenced for those in the UK? (Very possible in areas where training posts are lying vacant.) Try to create slightly longer term locum jobs, perhaps covering several departments, so people have more certainty than zero hours. And so on. The impression is that many consultants really hope their better F2s can find a way to stay, ideally progress, within the profession.

https://www.bmj.com/content/389/bmj.r1023

Sorry I don't understand about Oxford and Cambridge F2s. What is switch to the city?

Are they saying all Oxford F2s got a training place?

How can parents work a national system? Are we talking parents that are doctors? Freemasons?
What used to be called old boy network where private schools attempted to gain unfair advantage for their alumni?

Great article.

Long term workforce resilience is in danger as 46% of its doctors may return to their own country at any point. Who can blame them they may have aging parents be fed up of NHS etc.

Completely agree. Unfortunately the disaster will hit first Wednesday in August and parliament will be in recess.

All we get are sound bites like the leaked NHS 10 year plan in The Times article. Nothing since then. Nero fiddling while Rome burns springs to mind.

The government could turn this around by creating jobs for UK graduates ONLY in a push to prevent doctor unemployment and help get waiting lists down.

I assume that what NeedMoreSleep means is that many F2s in Cambridge (or possibly F2s who are Cambridge graduates) are considering an “emergency masters” or leaving medicine to work in the city in banking/finance. If you don’t have parents who can support you financially to take a higher degree or while you locum, your choices are limited.

Thanks.

Possibly means Oxford and Cambridge medical graduates as possibly have an advantage in getting a city job. What a waste of talent.

Sorry bad joke.

I have genuinely been told by someone whose DC was a Cambridge vet that many of their medical peers are, post F2, have failed to land training positions and are also looking unemployment in the face. Some are better resourced so a Masters becomes an option, whilst the Cambridge name/network makes the switch to a City career easier.

I had forgotten that this thread has been spared the attention of a tedious poster whose DS was at Oxford. She seems determined that any looming unemployment is down to British grads not being good enough, hard working enough etc. Based apparently on the astonishing sucess of her DS and his peers. (Or her sucess as a mother.).

No matter. The point is that newly qualified doctors with more resources, whether affluent parents, or parents with connections, have ways of swerving the crisis. Completely against the oft stated desire to widen access to medicine.

Whatever she meant, I know quite a few F2s in both those categories, and it applies to all of them, @PurpleFairyLights. So many talented young doctors facing unemployment.

I regularly name change so I doubt anyone recognises my name but I recognise so many names on this thread from the medicine threads over the years and nearly all of the DC seem to be in the same position. It’s depressing…

Edited to add, I know exactly which poster NeedMoreSleep means, and that, at least, made me laugh 😂

It really is depressing. They have all worked their socks off and now been faced with this complete mess.

Are there any other countries that allow their graduates to compete with IMGs on an equal footing? Please can someone post if they are aware?

No idea who that poster is but sounds awful. There have been a couple on here that seem to have dropped off.

Getting a job in The City probably isn't a great plan B for unemployed medical graduates. Their chance at the moment of getting an NHS training position is about 1 in 4 I think. In the big 4 accountants there are 50 applicants for every job, and for top law firms (for which of course they would have to do a postgraduate degree) there are 100 applicants for every job. In banking, which is notorious for having a terrible work/life balance, there is somewhere between a 1 in 100 and a 1 in 200 chance of getting a job.

Absolutely. My DC would not want to work in the city. Loves being a doctor.

I am also concerned about the timing of the BMA ballot. It will overshadow this issue so we potentially will have even more IMGs applying for training posts in October this year.

Similar (but not as bad) in nursing. Newly qualified nurses in Scotland struggled to get jobs on qualifying but the government is bringing in 100s of Nigerian nurses.

There are wards in our local hospital that have no home-educated nurses - just nurses from poorer, overseas countries / you can’t blame them for coming over for a so-called better life.

I’ve nothing personally against them -although I do think it is morally wrong to actively recruit from poorer nations - but there are cultural differences which can mean care is not as good as it could be. For example, no understanding of local history therefore not able to carry out reminiscence therapy with people with dementia.

The junior doctors issue though is absolutely staggering. How on earth has this been allowed to happen!

Yea difficult but they def exist. If they sign up to tea and empathy Facebook there's often remote area medical jobs begging for f3 drs.

Locuming is surely better use of buying time than paying 27k msc fees and xyz living cost fees? Can't say my msc has helped me with anything application wise I just felt like I was losing my brain cells post exams and it was relatively funded by study leave

Tbh I'd just do an f3 in oz. My mate is doing 8d/2wks as an a&e f3 and getting £4k/m take home

Oddandelsewhere I thought your DC were in the City.

Strong Oxbridge medical graduates have better odds. Their achievements of getting through 6 years of medical school, including the sixth academic year, plus the resilience/communication and other skills gained during foundation have value.

Health is an important sector for the financial industry. Attractive to recruit people who have experience from the inside. Law firms too, are interested in recruiting those with medical experience, for much the same reason.

Many sough after careers involve competition and long hours. I don't think banking is that much worse than the sort of hours demanded of early career doctors. Before going home to study for the exams (often with 40% pass rates) and sort out the various CV enhancements required to get on training in the first place.

DD went to a central London private school where about 50% went on to Oxbridge. Most of her peers are forging good careers in finance, law, tech and elsewhere. And earn a lot more than her. Whereas she is not the only medic who, despite strong intercalations, in finding her career grinding to a halt.

@Destiny123 there are not many locums these days. No enough to pay the rent every month.

@Destiny123 And the visa for Aus is £6,000. Lots don’t have that cash just lying around.