Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

[PurpleFairyLights]

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

Unfortunately a panic masters may not help if the government do not prioritise UK graduates above IMGs already here by stopping grandfathering.

There are an estimated 20,000 IMGs already working in the NHS so if they have a right to apply for a training post that will be 12000 UK graduates that have finished F2 + UK graduates that did not get a training place this year + 20,O00 IMGs already here.

This will cause a backlog for years. It will become a panic PhD with loss of clinical skills and knowledge.

This change may result in 5 years or more of UK graduates leaving the profession because there are so few trust grade jobs available and the ratios of applicants to training places will continue to be shockingly high.

Not any more, I haven't done for 8 years now

A msc won't help. I'm in the final year of mine and I'm still gonna be unemployed in 6m when I cct (unless I sell my house, make my partner ger a new job and relocate up north which I'm unfortunately considering

It will help (a bit) to get a training contract as it gets you the maximum points for additional qualifications. I guess it may also lead to opportunities to publish or present to achieve the maximum points for academic achievements. If you need 29/30 points just to to get an interview in some specialties, you can’t progress without a higher degree. It is not possible without the points for additional qualifications.

The current cohort have already had one slap in the face when it was announced after they had intercalated that intercalated degrees would no longer give them extra points for foundation placements. I guess the extra £9k tuition fees were worth it for some, if they were able to publish or present their BSc research…

It does seem that a career in medicine is becoming more about whether you can afford to pay for all the extra pieces of paper that you need to progress rather than how good a doctor you are.

OP you need to read the room.

You have nearly finished your training. You will have a job if you move.

This thread is not about people in training but about doctors without a training post who face unemployment in August so have to do an MSc to have a chance of getting a training number next year.

If you look at scoring matrix there's a lot easier ways of getting points that are cheaper and less effort than msc. Think regional teaching day setup, closed loop audit repeats, trainee lead in research projects- find thr local research network and email it's v easy I did for first time in f3 when didn't get an anaesthetic number

Anyone can move doesn't necc guarantee you a job when it's crazy high ratios of applicants my mates applying for anything and still been unemployed 6m. I can't practically move atm anyway as my nans just had an intracerebral bleed as lovely as you phrase "just move"

And an msc takes 3y minimum unless you quit medicine for a Yr and do it full time like public health trainees do so isn't a quick fix I started mine in st4 and still got another year

Tbh if I was v junior in training I'd more be looking to leave tbh.... with the nhs being told to cut 40% jobs and only 1 of my entire cohort of cct'ing st7s actually having obtained a job it's grim

Every Trust has been banned from replacing anyone that retires so moving is solving nothing. I think the whole healthcare system is doomed and we are all going to be unemployed for a long while (there were only 7 consultant jobs in the whole of the UK when looked last night... and slightly more graduating st7s!

NHS switching, slightly randomly, between merit and equality has a lot of answer for.

No more benefit (other than personal) from taking an intercalation as not everyone can afford to do so. No more F1 allocation based on points because some groups do less well at medical school. A doctor is a doctor and all jobs are equal.

Then the complete switch. Ferocious competition for training, where additional academic and research credentials really count. (And where solid experience at the NHS coal face, coupled with strong appraisals, doesn't.) Great if you managed to do your F1 and F2 at a research heavy London teaching hospital. Great if you have parents (UK or overseas) who can afford to fund you for a couple of years to gather the necessary qualifications. Great if you have family or other contacts who can steer you towards emerging locum positions, or allow you to be involved in research that they have access to.

Who benefits?

Is the NHS getting better senior doctors by allowing an international and academic arms race? And is this because this is what happened in the past, and so what current senior doctors equate to merit, despite medical schools revising their courses to place more emphasis on communication and other soft skills. And will they take the same approach when they are in senior positions.

Do all F1s get five choices before random allocation happens. In the past IMG F1s were partly used to fill gaps. The former head of a Penang private medical school once told me that he could place good graduates more or less anywhere in the UK but never in London. We are now told that more F1s are getting one of their top choices. Does this mean that actually more IMGs are able to get one of their top choices (often London) and actually more UKMGs are facing random allocation far away from friends and family, or being put in place holder positions. Is this really equality.

In the past you had the power to make strategic decisions. DD had a pretty good idea where her points would get her, effectively anywhere but London. Medium points, and a choice between a less popular deanery where she would have a better choice of rotations or somewhere more popular where she might have to accept what she was given. Low points and you start looking at: Wales, Scotland and NI with one or two others, but can still choose from them. All providing the incentive to do well at medical school. Presumably points are then not used to selection rotations either, potentially leaving some of the weakest in the cohort in extremely demanding positions, whereas in the past weaker candidates ended up in places used to providing more handholding.

We need academic doctors and but we also need practical doctors who bring other skills to the table. Actual performance really should be taken into account.

I posted this https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g36q8qepeo on another thread. Probably unusual but not exceptional in an NHS that is stretched to the limit. (DD had originally wanted to plump for a specific rotation only to find it withdrawn. The department was no longer allowed to take F1/F2s as during the previous year most if not all had quit.) No doubt that the surgeons involved have absolutely sparkling academic credentials, and as the report suggests, are delivering good quality care. However there will be other markers (losing nurses, HCAs and F1/F2s) which eventually put the NHS under more pressure. Consultants need to be leaders and motivators as well as having academic strengths. DD has worked for some fabulous people, but, as I am sure others can attest, strong departmental leadership is not universal. In a system that prioritises academic merit over other competencies, this kind of issue is bound to creep in.

I think it should be fairly straightforward to pass a law that a level of preference should be given to British citizens first for public sector funded roles, along with whatever caveats are needed around overseas roles for EEA and Commonwealth citizens. There is precedence in requiring nationality for security roles. In the current political and economic environment, it is hard to see anyone apart from Lib Dems and SNP raising serious objections.

There used to be such preference. It was withdrawn, and incentives in terms of accelerated family settlement and alternatives to the exams that UK doctors have to sit, were introduced

One way of keeping the NHS pay bill down?

We are the only comparable country who do not give resident preference.

Resident preference would not improve this situation as there are 20,000 IMGs in the UK .

It has to be UK graduates take priority followed by IMGs already here.

Otherwise there will be 12,000 F2s + 20,000 resident IMGs = 32,000 competing for 12,000 training posts in Oct 2025.

.On top of that will be approx 20,000 F2s who did not get into training this year = 52,000 doctors applying for 12,000 training places.

The old system was UK + EU graduates followed by everyone else.

I did for first time in f3 when didn't get an anaesthetic number

Exactly what DD planned. Get through a super busy F1/F2 gaining great experience and then take an F3, more certain of what she wanted to specialise in and then focus on getting the training number.

BUT F3 jobs are really hard to come by and with the opening up of entry level jobs to full international competition, attracting huge numbers of applicants. Someone DD knows has got one of the two Fellowship posts available in the deanery in speciality DD is interested in. Really really well regarded, and with a background of locuming for at least a year in the department. She did not get a training number this year and, unless things improve quickly next, will still be vying with DD and those coming out of F2 in a years time. (And moving is probably not an option as other Deaneries will have few positions and plenty of good local doctors already known to them.)

For those struggling further up the career path, what impact are programmes such as this having:
https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/two-plus-two-programme/

Perhaps, but what is achievable?

There are strong IMG lobbies within the system, many of whom will argue that we have a duty to keep taking in doctors from overseas because of the debt we owe the earlier generation of overseas doctors. I assume there are also cost considerations.

A cut off will mean that it takes some time to sort things out, but should in time increase the chances of our DC being able to build careers in the UK. And also allow some stuck in Australia to return.

I think someone said Ireland have a similar situation. One issue is that it doesn't actually keep the pay bill down in the UK because the pay is centrally fixed. Instead we get more competition for exisiting jobs.

As a country we would be better off having more consultants who were paid a bit less. It is possible that most medics would be better off in that situation too, with more access to stable and still well paid roles with the option for private work.

Personally I think the main issues for medics seem to be things like: being posted anywhere, not being prioritised for jobs over overseas applicants, not being able to get training places or consultant roles, being overworked etc.

However the bma seems fixated on pay, which particularly at the upper end looks pretty good. Even if pay hasn't kept up with inflation that is true for many others in both the public and private sectors.

Unfortunately, the country has got poorer, is in debt and has less money to spend. Brexit, Covid, aging population, many people in sickness benefits, no industrial strategy, take your pick for the causes.

The government could choose to ignore the lobby groups and implement its desired policy based on gathering independent evidence?

To be fair a lot of government policy would be improved in this way!

Absolutely they need to shut down influence that is detrimental to UK graduates straight away.

I think it is generally agreed that the BMA is more responsive to some interests than others. The lack of career/job prospects for F2s do not seem to carry much weight when it comes to deciding policy priorities .

That argument does not make sense. That rationale did not exist in 2019 before the flood gates opened.

I would like to see another country that allows such a powerful lobby group that campaigns for rights of doctors trained overseas that is to the detriment of UK graduates that have studied for 5 years and got 100k of debt.

Someone in government needs to look at these groups immediately.

The alternatives seem to be

1. write off the student debt for UK graduates that do not have a job or training number due to government "mistakes".

1. Close down UK medical schools

1. Recruit worldwide and hope IMGs stay in UK once consultants. Not ethical to steal other countries doctors.

The hybrid system that has left 20,000 doctors unemployed in August cannot be allowed to continue. It is unfair on bright dedicated young people. The UK has let them down.

The BMA committee who deals with this is partly made up of IMGs not sure of ratio but you are not going to bite the hand that feeds you

@Destiny123 you are also in an awful position and most of your advice about points is helpful but you seem to be missing the point (no pun intended) about needing a higher degree to get a training contract. If you need 29/30 points to get an interview and 2/30 points are for additional qualifications, you have to have a higher degree to achieve enough points. 30-2=28.

Even for specialties that require lower scores, if the F3 jobs are going to more experienced IMGs, it’s impossible to build up points from audits, teaching etc if you are just doing a handful of locum shifts here and there or are unemployed.

I read 41% IMGs make up BMA membership but government should not listen to BMA on this matter. Before 2019 IMGs were not prioritised ahead of UK graduates.

Would this happen in France or USA?

Exactly this.

Our unemployed UK grads need their student debt cancelled as there is no way the majority of UK grads will ever get a job or training contract.

The UK grads owe 100k but will pay around 150k on top in interest.

How can the IMG contingent of the BMA think this is fair?

They probably don't think it is fair. It is just in their self interest.

I'm not missing the point. I'm well aware of the crap of applications I got an enforced f3 year and an enforced year out waiting a reg job too (and probably only got that cos it was covid and they didn't want to put a ton of anaesthetic/icu drs in a room together and wipe us out out)

Unless you want 3y out of training a msc isn't going to help. There's an absolute ton of other stuff that you can get on the scoring matrix far far easier, I know I spent my f3 year going through each box ticking as much as I could off

I can say with certainty you don't HAVE to have an additional degree to get a job, the vast majority of drs don't have them, it's possible without.

If you want i can teams call anyone affected to help them find the easy ways to points (i didnt really uhderstand with hindsight but its much more obvious the easier wins now im higher into training. Or your welcome to live with the believes you must have extra degrees/debt etc and add even more years out to their training, either will work

(Intercalated will get points at reg applications, even though theyve removed it from the core matrix, I didn't do one as it was the year the fees went up and my uni had poor options so couldn't afford)