Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

[PurpleFairyLights]

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

31% of the British medical students are of non-white British heritage. This will affect them, too.

Thanks @wannabewitch, it’s my DD who has got into training. But none of her friends who applied to Paeds have, as needed a PhD to get enough points. Only one IMT applicant got in. CST I know of 4 out of 38 who applied - all v strong candidates but not enough points. Why publishing or presenting makes you a better doctor I do not understand.

I am v v shocked if you talk to and support resident doctors that you are not able to see the problems. But thankfully many senior doctors can and are advocating for change.

Oh and all my contact is face to face. The doctors I contact via WhatsApp turn up to events I run. They are amazing humans who give their time to help
others. I sent a message earlier to ask how many had a job in August, and the answer is less than 30% of them. And of those quite a few are abroad. 25% have got into training. Many of these students were top 10% of their cohorts and have amazing portfolios - just not good enough when 33,000 people apply for 12,000 jobs.

Thanks for helpful post. Unfortunately the unpleasant posts about DC that did not get into training continue. It is about the 33000 applicants instead of 12000 graduates.

Why is someone supposedly supporting these young doctors while holding those opinions, not good enough etc? I would be reporting if they had anything to do with my DC as doctors in this situation are very vulnerable already without being told they are not enough ability or aptitude. Physician suicide is a huge concern.

You are doing amazing work.

@PurpleFairyLights I love doing it. I teach at quite a tough school, but so many of the students have high aspirations. And we’ve learned how to help them reach them. Universities have been amazing in offering advice and access to their students and doctors. Oh and I’m quite pushy 😂.

Anyone claiming that the lack of jobs has anything to do with capability if doctors just shows how clueless they are. Portfolio points are just weird. And MSRA has no relevance to anything except GP. But some people just don’t like doctors !

Mumsneedwine, if you think the hours are unnacceptable, the pay is atrocious and that foreigners are taking all the jobs isn't it irresponsible to still be enabling students to go to medical school?

Not even worth a reply. You are just unpleasant. And hope no doctor I know ever comes into contact with you. Bye.

Completely agree. Best to ignore these unpleasant characters. Who would think a post regarding DC that are doctors not getting training posts would attract such nasty posts from those that are not doctors and do not have DC that are doctors?

My issue is the belief that all should get what they want on the minimum required and not accepting that some are just not suitable for specialist training.

Some of my friends left medicine because they did not get a training post and now all bar one admit they should never have gone to med school in the first place.
Getting 10 yrs in and realising your heart is not in it, is soul destroying and a far more difficult place to be than some adversity early on.

I fully support my residents but also make them question their motivation, tell them to look at the bigger world of medicine, research, management and life outside before settling on this life - it is not an easy career.

I asked a pertinent question in a civil way. You, on the other hand, decided that it would be better to insult me than answer. Why do you repeatedly do that?

It is probably because the "question" was ridiculous. There is something called free will. It would be unethical for an educator to do what you suggested. Facts can be given but after that individuals need to make their own decision.

Most people that apply to medical school are aware it is hard work but they did not know that governments would remove priority for training posts so they would competing with medical graduates worldwide resulting in only 20% getting a training post so facing unemployment with 100k student debt.

Comprende?

https://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/education-and-training/bma-leaders-to-debate-prioritising-uk-medical-graduates-for-foundation-programmes/

Thoughts on second motion?

I don't know a single paed that had a PhD in st1, tbh I can't even thing of any with one as st7/consultants I regularly work with. There's faaaaar easier ways to get points, tell them to Google the storing matrix for their next go

Oh your exam comment alone is hilarious. There's 6 exams for anaesthetic training spread over 4y. They have a 40% pass rate at each go, I don't know a single person that passed them all first time. I nearly committed suicide over the first exam, I know 4 colleagues that did, having maxed out their attempts and facing being chucked out of training. The exams range for 470£ to £800 a sitting. All we get is the tax back on the costs. I literally did nothing but work cook revise and sleep for yrs. I gave up every hobby activity n my life to exams. Not that most was even useful to life as they love asking questions about using anaesthetic gases that don't exist in the UK, only in the 3rd world, or assessing how to give an Anaesthetic up mount everest!

Paediatric points. Needed 39 points to get an interview. Nationallly published applicants didn’t get interviews. How any of these points make you a better doctor I’m not sure

https://www.rcpch.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-11/ST1%20Application%20Form%20Scoring%20Framework%202024%20v.3%20JAC%20011123.pdf

The storing matrix, @Destiny123? Google has not enlightened me.

Edited to add, as soon as I hit post, I realised it was a typo for scoring! 😂

Haha sorry! Someones linked it above for paeds (the anaesthetic version is actually called scoring matrix)

One of my DCs is currently in the last year of residency in the US. The hours are indeed brutal. A month of nights with one day off in every seven is his current schedule. No time off whatsoever apart from scheduled days in the first year - had to beg for a day to attend a family funeral (very close relative). Had to cry off being a groomsman at a friend-for-life's wedding. Three years of that and he'll be let loose on the ailing population and make well into six figures straight off the blocks. He got a raise this year, reflecting the added responsibilities of seniority, bringing him well over the £39k mark even taking the exchange rate into account.

Yes, getting into med school is super competitive, and getting into your preferred specialty (residency trains you for your specialty) is even moreso. But there are jobs waiting at the other end.

I don't know why anyone would choose to go into medicine in the UK. You're right that doctors are not paid by the hour, but they are paid to make life and death decisions and to bring all their specialized knowledge and thousands of hours of focused observation and experience to bear every time they see a patient. There is no way their compensation should be comparable to some middle manager or that a barista should be further along the way to owning a home than a doctor would ten years after leaving secondary school.

@wannabewitch what you don't seem to understand about hours of work as a young resident doctor is that, of course, rotas need to be inline with legislative contracted hours but the reality is those above will ask you to come in early often 1-2 hours earlier than rota. Add to that day the fact that you either want to stay late to finish in surgery or that the expectation is that you do. Or that you feel obliged/want to stay with a patient or that handover is delayed considerably. Multiply that by 5 or 7 days a week and you are soon at 70 hours.
With regard to hourly rate (and I resent challenging you again on this) the salary you quote for a Costa Barista, which is the very basic, is for a standard 35 or 37 hour week now. The £29k which an F1 started on before last year's attempt at pay restoration was for contracted 48 hour week so yes the hourly rate is applicable to this conversation.

And they ARE paid by the hour ! Ask the people with stakeholder jobs. Some have not got 40 working hours a week and are paid less. Here is a generic doctor payslip - hourly rate included.

All resident doctors have to sign a waiver to say they are happy to work behind legislative hours.

Was going to post exactly this. The rotas are brutal and most would love a 48 hour week which is a work of fiction for most.

DD had one regular hours rotation out of six. In many ways it was bliss. Weekends and evenings to enjoy. Unfortunately her take home pay dropped significantly. The basic is not great. Inevitably the Physicians Associate was paid more and had more guaranteed training time, despite a lot less responsibility.

Otherwise what are posters expecting. The Consultant gets caught up and starts the ward round late. Does the F2 announce they have done their hours and are leaving. Some might, and might then have a head start on preparing for exams. But others, who may make better doctors, stay on both for the ward round and to hand over properly.

And that is for doctors in England. F1s can be sent anywhere in the UK. So might face old contract, longer hours, no personal development time, and lower pay. Yet still be expected to compete for the very limited numbers of training places, against others who have been able to afford to take a year or two out to prepare, from either within the UK or overseas.

(I am reliably told that a 'panic Masters' is now much more of a thing given the scarcity of both training places and of alternative employment. A pity if your parentsdont have the money.)