Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

[PurpleFairyLights]

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

@OneMorePiece thanks for that.

I read that BMA now want to prioritise UK grads from 5th March 2025 but want IMGs already here to have same priority as UK grads.

This seems ridiculous as the backlog for UK grads will be huge as the ones that did not get a training place this year will be applying next year too.

I was talking to someone in the NHS about it and their attitude was IMGs here were never promised a training place and that UK grads were as most medical students go to medical school in their own country in order to practice medicine in their own country.

How do you see a solution to this?

I want to start a campaign that is ready to launch as soon as August unemployed figures come out but in the meantime be contacting people in the background.

This has made me cry, this experience to my son's is so so different it's unbelievable.
£120k of debt, compound interest at c8%, paying back around £500 per month. He has paid £145k in rent alone since starting his degree course.Hospital accommodation is rare now and during his first 6 weeks as and F1 he lived out of his car with a few nights sofa surfing, private rental rooms were few and far between due to people moving back in to the city after the pandemic.
His first week as F1 he worked nights and was left responsible for 70 patients and the WhatsApp of his consultant. For £14.83 per hour
48 hour contracted, regularly working 4 hours a day over that, unpaid. So nearly a 70 hour week.
Can only take 9 days holiday per rotation so no chance of a "normal". 2 week holiday with friends, even if he could afford it!
Teaching often not delivered as he is rota'd (which I think is illegal).
Worlds apart from your husband's experience.

What a weird post. ‘My husband did lots of hours but no shifts’, so who worked at nights ? Was not all
consultants surely. Doctors now work 78 hour weeks so that’s not changed. And getting a job by interview sounds a dream - I’m sure everyone would prefer that to the random stupid system now. Oh and they still get moved around every 6-12 months. So the only thing that’s changed is the debt, the salary and the unemployment. If your husband really is a doctor I hope he understands how lucky he is to be a consultant. Many current F2s will never get that opportunity, not because of their ability, but because the system prevents them even starting training.

I will never understand why people bother posting about their experience of 20 years ago and think it has any relevance today.

I can’t even believe the comment on the striking being ‘unprofessional’. Must be nice to not have had your pay cut by 22%. What’s unprofessional is consultants not supporting resident doctors in the fight to save the profession. Wonder if he supervises PAs !

Mumsneedwine of course consultants didn't do nights, the person who was working in the day did nights. They worked 1 in 3 all day and all night. You seem very keen to question whether my husband is a doctor. Why do you think that is?
I know it is hard for young people to get a job now, but trying to pretend to earlier generations that they had everything handed to them on a plate is ridiculous. If you really are a teacher surely you knew that medical school places had been doubled with no increase in training posts at the end.

@oddandelsewhere can you please tell me when anyone has said it was easier years ago. I’ve not read anyone saying that, as no one mentions years ago. We talk about now. I question anyone who claims to be a doctor but doesn’t understand the current problems, especially the pending unemployment, as it would show a huge lack of empathy.

There are more Uni places, which is not a good thing, as it’s going to mean more unemployment. However this has meant it’s no longer the preserve of the wealthy private educated (predominantly male) older cohort. WP has made a huge difference. But it’s also meant that young doctors know their worth. And its not 22% less than when your husband was doing their job.

And juniors working hours are 48 per week averaged over 26 weeks. If they are working 78 per week every week your child should contact their union ( who publish this information on their website)
Sadly I can't see that there being more new graduates has increased their worth. As with everything else the more there is of something it usually gets cheaper.

@oddandelsewhere again you show how out of touch you are. The minimum week is 48 hours but they work 78 hours on some weeks. It’s all legal and v v common, especially if on a run of nights. I’m lease educate yourself.

And stop being rude about young doctors - why do you feel the need to do that ? The standard has not slipped. Why oh why are people so ignorant !!!

And will just add that that is a paid 48 hours. Most work very many unpaid - as no one turns up to take over. Exception reporting only works if consultants are supportive. Lots have no idea what their resident colleagues deal with 😡

What a bizarre posts @oddandelsewhere
Do you really think that Junior Doctors are to blame in actually simply wanting a job after 5 years and more of training and slog

No one is saying Dr's of old didn't work hard
But
You are introducing a strawman argument
The thread is about there being no training posts for Junior doctors 2 years post qualifying NOW
It's a bit like some replying to " can't afford to buy a house now" with
" well I managed it in 1995"
Really unhelpful!

Honestly who comes onto a thread about the plight of young doctors and gets so unpleasant about them? Turns my stomach.

Also not a doctor or the parent of a doctor. Only information is from 20 years ago.

Just heard application cycle for training places starting in August 2026 start in November so government do not have long to change the rules to prevent the utter failure to protect UK graduates from unemployment.

Applications open in October. MSRA sat in Jan/Feb and portfolios sent before Xmas for some specialities. Interviews for the ones that use them can be November- March. It’s why most only apply for 1 or 2 specialities if working in the NHS as it’s so time consuming. The multiple applications are usually from those abroad.

Thanks. Do you think government have enough time to sort this out before new application cycle?

DC sadly very low and now wished had done something like accountancy. I am concerned about the well being of these unemployed doctors with suicide rates high with medics already.

Contrary to what a couple of spiteful posters believe my DC could have done anything with grades obtained but they actually wanted to be a doctor.

Let down by UK. I think any unemployed doctors due to overseas graduates competition deserve compensation in the form of student loan written off or a job found for them.

UK medical schools also need to be informing applicants that chances of a job are becoming very slim due the factories abroad churning out doctors for the NHS without care or regard for the UK grads.

IT jobs disappeared en masse due to outsourcing to other countries with a cheaper workforce.

It would take 5 minutes to sort out. Just give priority to UK graduates. So it could be done if the will is there. Meanwhile this is what’s going on.

There are jobs, mainly teaching ones. And it is possible to get into training - if it’s one that interviews !

So no legislation required?

BMA are asking for the 20,800 IMGs already here to be included in the prioritisation which will make the next few years a problem for UK grads.

How do those jobs on the link result in getting a training number?

The number of 20800 IMGs in the UK was from Google search NOT BMA sources.

www.bmj.com/content/388/bmj.r157

We follow this close as DS studies medicine. It's really weird.

He has double citizenship to an EU country and he is 100% bilingual.
He is thinking of doing his training in EU as he will be welcomed in his 'second country'. And most likely settle as it takes years to train.
UK doesn't seem to be the best choice these years.

This is a disaster for the UK's medical workforce in the long term... which is already in parlous state. We are using limited resources to train doctors with no long term commitment to the UK, in place of our own graduates. Many of whom (UK graduates) will then leave UK medicine never to return, as they have literally been forced to find other careers despite themselves and the taxpayer spending tens of thousands of £ specifically training them to become doctors.

I cannot begrudge IMGs for taking up the opportunity to get what is considered a world class CCT. Have worked with many excellent IMGs - however from a workforce planning POV their desire to train here often does not align with a desire to remain post-CCT. Particularly when our immigration policies do not permit them to bring their families to the UK. So when they become consultants and leave the country...

The NHS is currently responding to the diminishing number of consultants as a convenient way to save money. When a post becomes vacant through retirement, just don't fill it. Who needs consultants to practice medicine really. Instead, the medicine can be done by dramatically less qualified assistants and practitioners under the supervision of a diminishing number of consultants, whilst waiting lists (to be seen by a specialist, to get your scan reviewed by a radiologist, to have surgery...) grow and grow. What could possibly go wrong for patients...

This looks really hopeful. I just hope Labour follow it through immediately and also prevent grandfathering so UK graduates first then IMGs in the UK second then anyone else.

Preventing grandfathering seems harsh but if it is not prevented the backlog will never clear as there are not enough training posts for UK graduates already. This is because of the backlog of UK doctors that did not get a training post this year and the past few years will be applying next year. There is not the capacity to provide for IMGs already here. Already a UK graduate could be unemployed for a number of years due to backlog and after a maxunum of 3 years would lose their licence to practice along witj clinical knowledge so no longer employable but 100k in debt. Not a great look for a country.

The people that were influential in promoting this warped system being introduced will have to explain and apologise to the IMGs already in the UK but realistically governments can change a policy that was to the detriment of UK graduates that are 100k in debt and remove grandfathering. Most IMGs will be able to work as doctors in their own counties (asylum seekers obviously need to remain) unlike 22000 UK graduates in August. Most do not want to mark time in Oz or NZ as they have lives here.

Wes also needs to start investigating the various gravy trains.

He is lucky to have dual nationality but he should be able to stay in UK if he wishes. He has worked hard for that right!

This country is ridiculous train the world to CCT then watch them go back to their home countries with all thst knowledge and experience

Consultants are needed not just for their work but to train the next generation of doctors.

Again I don't blame them. They are doing nothing illegal. The UK government allowed this

They need to put it right before Oriel opens in October 2025 for applications for training places in 2026

Preventing grandfathering has to be part of it. Unfortunately Labour never seem.to do anything properly and usually do half measures. Also likely to cave in when lobbyists for gravy train to remain start on them.

I was so hopeful of this government.

The eco system before 2019 worked well. There were enough F1 places for everyone coming out of medical school (approx 12000 a year) with a few exceptions. Then two years after qualifying these 12000 doctors had 12000 training places to apply for.

It was the sheer number of IMGs applying for these 12000 places that caused the problem as too much competition. Along with a points based system for specialty training that favours those that have been doctors for more than two years for example points for leadership, papers presented, audits etc