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To think voting for assisted dying legalisation could be a huge mistake???

1000 replies

MyLimeGuide · 14/05/2025 07:41

In Scotland they are voting to legalise assisted dying. Looking likely to pass. I am worried this will come to England now. Kier is already proving he doesn't care about old and disabled people so this scares me.
Obviously there are 2 sides but how can people be so ignorant? If passed this could be one of the biggest opportunity for corrupt evil behaviour of saving money on the NHS, care, people literally getting away murder, playing god! No not good. It's so scary.

OP posts:
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9
Iheartmysmart · 14/05/2025 11:01

No amount of ‘good’ palliative care would have stopped my dad slowing suffocating due to end stage COPD. Instead my mum, his wife of 56 years, sat at his bedside watching him gasp for every breath. He had no quality of life for some time prior to his death, connected 24/7 to oxygen, unable to do anything other than sit in his chair trying to breathe. It was a barbaric end for a proud man.

My nan was admitted to hospital after a fall which cause a bleed on the brain. She died slowly over the course of a week, no food or water given during this time. We sat with her while she slowly faded away, listening to the death rattle and seeing the tears stream down her face.

Bloody awful deaths for both of them and for the family who witnessed it. How anyone can say this is preferable to euthanasia is beyond me.

Laiste · 14/05/2025 11:03

CorneliaCupp · Today 10:55
The Royal College of Psychiatrists don't support this bill, for the following reasons:

What have they done in regard to these points in other countries, where assisted dying has been introduced with success?

It's not Canada's mess or nothing ...

godmum56 · 14/05/2025 11:04

Magnesiumsuppliments · 14/05/2025 10:57

I get that people are genuinely scared of coercion or of people with severe disabilities being valued less. I don't know what to say to comfort or convince them.

The issue with that statement is that, in our current society what you really mean is 'I don't know what to say to shut them up'. Because we know our infrastructure is not set up to support anyone dying within this time frame. The only way for this to work currently is to cut corners which means some people will be coerced into this.

no, I don't want to shut anybody up. This debate is important and everyone should take a view and express it if they wish to. I do think though that anything stated as a fact should BE a fact and "proper palliative care fixes everything" and "no one would want to end their life early if there was proper paliiative care" are not facts. I agree that good palliative care should be available to everyone who needs it but there are people who still may not want the end stage palliative care options and still people for whom the only end stage option is very very heavy sedation and intubation.

bluetongue · 14/05/2025 11:04

OneQuirkyPanda · 14/05/2025 07:49

I was all for assisted dying until I watched a documentary about what’s happened with it in Canada and other countries, it is indeed very scary.

It’s also now legal in much of Australia and it’s nothing like the Canada situation here. Just because some countries have gone too far doesn’t mean it can’t work well elsewhere.

Laiste · 14/05/2025 11:10

''good palliative care should be available to everyone who needs it but there are people who still may not want the end stage palliative care options and still people for whom the only end stage option is very very heavy sedation and intubation.''

To me this is the very core of this issue.

''Good'' palliative care is available.
All these poster's relatives who suffered and suffered and died in pain were having good palliative care.

I don't want good palliative care. I want out early on. And i want that choice.

ERthree · 14/05/2025 11:10

MyLimeGuide · 14/05/2025 07:47

I'm also concerned it will end up that people with depression will be allowed to top themselves. For example.

You are being ridiculous. It won't be a case of saying "i have had enough and want to die today" There will be very strict guidelines in place and being a bit down won't make the list.
Have you ever watched a loved roll around in sheer agony, and by that i don't mean they have stubbed their toe, i mean when cancer is raging through their body and every breath is excruciating and there is no chance of them living longer than the next few days ? Why would you allow that person to suffer just because it makes you feel better ?

knitnerd90 · 14/05/2025 11:12

If they were suffering in pain, I would dispute that it was good care. It may have been unavoidable even under the best circumstances, but not always, and we know full well that the best quality care is not always available. And that's only the medical side of it, not the availability and quality of the social care that many people need at the end of life.

Magnesiumsuppliments · 14/05/2025 11:12

godmum56 · 14/05/2025 11:04

no, I don't want to shut anybody up. This debate is important and everyone should take a view and express it if they wish to. I do think though that anything stated as a fact should BE a fact and "proper palliative care fixes everything" and "no one would want to end their life early if there was proper paliiative care" are not facts. I agree that good palliative care should be available to everyone who needs it but there are people who still may not want the end stage palliative care options and still people for whom the only end stage option is very very heavy sedation and intubation.

Anyone in favour, genuinely understanding the negatives does want to shut people up. Because it is impossible for this to work here without cutting corners. You cannot be 'for' this without either not understanding the repercussions or thinking they are unimportant.

I agree with what you are saying RE palliative care but also think people are also disillusioned about the comfort of an assisted death in many cases.

In an ideal world we would offer proper safeguarded, comfortable well thought out assisted deaths but our country cannot afford to provide that.

Dotjones · 14/05/2025 11:12

MyLimeGuide · 14/05/2025 07:47

I'm also concerned it will end up that people with depression will be allowed to top themselves. For example.

I've got news for you, we already are allowed to "top ourselves". Assisted dying would just make it safer, cleaner, less painful and remove the distress of whoever finds our corpse. My only problem with assisted suicide is that the proposals are too strict, it will be very hard for most people to qualify. I think it should be available to anyone who wants it, it shouldn't be restricted to the lucky few with the "right" disease.

Thedogsearsarewetxxx · 14/05/2025 11:13

I have lived in two countries which permit assisted dying.

I think we have to be very aware, that if you allow assisted dying, that it immediately creates (once a terminal diagnosis has been given with less than six months to live) two formal categories with distinct rules and regs attached to both:

Category A : those who want to live until they meet a natural end,

Category B: those who want to be assisted to die.

Those two formal distinct categories are created out of the necessity within the health care system to not mix the two up, and because, once a terminal diagnosis has been pronounced, and the patient usually has less than six months to live, it’s two distinctly separate health care teams that step in, at the very end anyway.

(Patients can change their mind at any time right up to the very end though as to which category they want to be in.)

Anyway two different sets of strict regulations and laws develop around each category as it is important obviously that both are extremely well regulated.

We must all be very aware therefore that this distinct categorisation creates problems for the category who wish to die naturally, because whereas previously, a family or hospital doctor would use their personal judgement and knowledge of that patient and their circumstances, to administer morphine or whatever at the end to ease pain and distressing symptoms; owing to the necessary strict legislation surrounding the above categorisations, doctors are no longer allowed that same autonomy, and are fearful of prosecution.

They now have to stick to limits of drugs permitted by the legislation surrounding category A patients, for fear of falling unwittingly in to using limits only permitted for category B.

Beware everyone please, this can occasionally lead to uncomfortable and sometimes unnecessarily painful deaths for those opting for category A.

I have twice personally witnessed doctors refusing requests from palliative care nurses to write prescriptions for more, and heavier painkillers, for patients dying of specific diseases, for example, Parkinsons and cancer.

Therefore, although I am in favour of assisted dying in principle, and think it can bring huge relief to the terminally ill, I am very wary of how it works in practice, especially as the problematic issues mentioned above, occurred in very well resourced, professional and sympathetic care contexts.

Also, I agree with others, that if assisted dying becomes widespread and normalised, we will perhaps have less and less reason and motivation to develop drugs and care practices that assist the elderly and disabled to live as good a life as they can despite significant challenges. Or devote sufficient resources to help them, when there are so many other pressing funding requirements.

Think about the priority that the UK government gives to social care now! It’s always at the bottom of the heap. And care workers, who incidentally have to take 37 exams to do their very responsible job, are paid some of the lowest wages in the country. Care is not valued as it should be and I fear elderly, unwell, disabled, or socially isolated patients, will fall under subtle or not-so-subtle pressure to “not place a burden on others”.

In summary, and this is a very hard thing to wrestle with, although assisted dying may be a caring thing to provide, and significantly reduce worry, pain and distress to terminally ill patients, for whom I have the greatest sympathy, I am not convinced that assisted dying is good for society as a whole.

charliehungerford · 14/05/2025 11:19

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 14/05/2025 09:50

And they do. Often violently, causing trauma to their families, to train drivers and train passengers.

Is that what you want?

Of course not, I was just pointing out that sadly people do take their own lives. This legislation wouldn’t change anything. It shouldn’t be available for people who are depressed, depression isn’t a terminal diagnosis so people suffering from depression wouldn’t be able to access assisted dying.

CorneliaCupp · 14/05/2025 11:19

Great post @Thedogsearsarewetxxx. Really sets out some unintended consequences.
I am concerned about palliative care becoming an option. There is no doubt that it is far less expensive to kill someone then keep them alive and comfortable. I am concerned that pressure will be out onto already vulnerable people to choose something they wouldn't otherwise.

weirdwalking · 14/05/2025 11:21

Is your opinion.
You’re sounding like the ignorant one here I’m afraid.

Moier · 14/05/2025 11:22

MyLimeGuide · 14/05/2025 07:47

I'm also concerned it will end up that people with depression will be allowed to top themselves. For example.

It won't.
It will be heavily monitored.
People can commit suicide now if they so wish .
This will be very very strict.

AutumnScream · 14/05/2025 11:23

I actually think that its sick we do not currently have this as law. I am all for assisted dying. At the end of the day we all should have the right to die how we choose, whether naturally with pallative care or speed up the process with drugs surrounded by family and friends. We actually have a human rights law that means the court can step in and decide to end a childs life support if the parents refuse and theres no quality of life there yet adults who want to make the same decision for themselves its illegal.

IsawwhatIsaw · 14/05/2025 11:23

I hope the Bill comes into law subject to rigorous checks and safeguards.
I believe for people to have to get on a plane far away from family and friends to access help is appalling.
other countries have implemented this.

AutumnScream · 14/05/2025 11:24

Also people can already commit suicide whenever they want to. Thats not a crime anymore. But apparently wanting to end your life comfortably surrounded by loved ones is still both a crime and a moral issue according to some people.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 14/05/2025 11:25

Laiste · 14/05/2025 11:10

''good palliative care should be available to everyone who needs it but there are people who still may not want the end stage palliative care options and still people for whom the only end stage option is very very heavy sedation and intubation.''

To me this is the very core of this issue.

''Good'' palliative care is available.
All these poster's relatives who suffered and suffered and died in pain were having good palliative care.

I don't want good palliative care. I want out early on. And i want that choice.

All these poster's relatives who suffered and suffered and died in pain were having good palliative care.

Unless you were there, that's not necessarily true. You're perfectly aware that the NHS is barely functioning yet seem convinced that everyone has good palliative care.

It's very much the case that good palliative care is not always available.

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/05/2025 11:27

MiloMinderbinder925 · 14/05/2025 10:08

They don't have six months to live.

And this will be one of the early amendments once the bill has been passed - I'd put money on it.

Alpacacaca · 14/05/2025 11:32

I’m all for assisted dying, but currently,
• with any of the politicians we have to vote in these things and ensure their safety,
• with the issues within every government organisation, frequently failing the service users, frequent cover ups of poor behaviour and lack of accountability,
• with the current widely held views on disability, mental health, special needs,
• with examples of assisted dying being riddled with problems

with all that in mind YANBU.

It’s not currently about watching your relative have a long painful death, of course most people want there to be better options.

What needs to happen is all the checks and measures put in place to protect all the people who are vulnerable to the government’s policies that could lead them extremely vulnerable to pushed to premature death, as happens in Canada.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 14/05/2025 11:34

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/05/2025 11:27

And this will be one of the early amendments once the bill has been passed - I'd put money on it.

Wait until you get Farage in government and watch the floodgates open. Care is expensive, pensions are expensive, long term health conditions are expensive, people with disabilities on benefits are expensive.

No NHS, inability to get adequate healthcare or other support and you'll be kettled into AD.

OlivePeer · 14/05/2025 11:40

VickyEadieofThigh · 14/05/2025 11:27

And this will be one of the early amendments once the bill has been passed - I'd put money on it.

I hope so.

godmum56 · 14/05/2025 11:44

Magnesiumsuppliments · 14/05/2025 11:12

Anyone in favour, genuinely understanding the negatives does want to shut people up. Because it is impossible for this to work here without cutting corners. You cannot be 'for' this without either not understanding the repercussions or thinking they are unimportant.

I agree with what you are saying RE palliative care but also think people are also disillusioned about the comfort of an assisted death in many cases.

In an ideal world we would offer proper safeguarded, comfortable well thought out assisted deaths but our country cannot afford to provide that.

Edited

Nope. I genuinely do not want people to shut up. I think we disagree about what the repercussions of THIS BILL might be. As had been said, abortion was sid to be going to lead to child murder and it hasn't. What it has done is pretty much shut down back street abortionists with the horrific consequences that came from using them. Originally women couldn't be given contraception unless they were married because it would encourage sex before marriage shock horror...given no morning after pill or termination choices, where did they end up? at the aforesaid backstreet abortionists or the gin and hot bath route.

godmum56 · 14/05/2025 11:45

MiloMinderbinder925 · 14/05/2025 11:25

All these poster's relatives who suffered and suffered and died in pain were having good palliative care.

Unless you were there, that's not necessarily true. You're perfectly aware that the NHS is barely functioning yet seem convinced that everyone has good palliative care.

It's very much the case that good palliative care is not always available.

I was there. The people I knew were getting good palliative care.

MiloMinderbinder925 · 14/05/2025 11:48

godmum56 · 14/05/2025 11:45

I was there. The people I knew were getting good palliative care.

You were present at all the poster's relatives deaths?

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