To have not known kids have to attain grade 4 in maths?

[Pepperpotladles]

I did not know this!
I have obviously been living under a rock.
So today someone told me that if kids get grades 1, 2 or 3 in their maths GCSE, it is compulsory that all these kids have to keep on studying GCSE maths until they achieve a grade 4 or above, and they have to keep trying to achieve this up until their 25th birthday.
Is this true?!?
I can't believe my ears.
What about kids who simply can't achieve grade 4 or above in maths, for any number of reasons?

So no savings account, no debt, credit cards?

No salary, pay rises, comparing items when buying things?
No value for money?

I’m exactly the same, I only passed the second time by the skin of my teeth.
When my children ask me for help with maths homework I feel exactly the same level of panic I did when I had to do it in maths class.
They know to go to the Dad for Maths help and me for creative art and English, but you’re right, the feeling of being a bit of a dunce stays with you always especially when other people find it so easy.

I have dyscalculia, unrecognised at school because it wasn't understood as a separate condition at the time, and I was a grade A English student. I got myself diagnosed at 25 after reading an article in a magazine on the subject.

I never got my maths GCSE, despite resits. I feel for your daughter and wish her all the best, but if it's any consolation, all the skills you mentioned, I can do and have done. I just perhaps don't do them the same way that other people do.

Many people here seem to think that everyone is like them. Literate, numerate and academic. This is simply not the case.

7.1 million people in the UK read at the level of the average 9 year old ( NIHR, 2022).

Is it really that hard to imagine that many people struggle with maths?

I tutor maths and some of the people i tutor at 16+ are for foundation maths. They tend to be very quick at the maths that is directly related to their chosen profession. I.e. the lad studying farming very quick at concentration questions or lengths of wood. But recipe questions - no can do. An inability to get a 4 in maths is not the end of the world.

Apparently, of those that fail, only 25% will manage to pass at a later attempt.

It's got to be disheartening though to retake maths or English GCSEs again and again, to sit through more maths lessons and to keep not getting a 4.

I think the chances of someone not getting a 4 or above if they didn't get it first time are not very high.

I do think though that it should not define you - and I know people who struggled with maths but once they had to use it at work, then they grasped their work maths really well and used it effectively.. Things like doing marketing and looking at response rates, VFM on campaigns etc

Yes would have to resit as part of 16-18 education. But to 25?? How would that be enforced?

I honestly think that people that get Maths don't see why its difficult for those who don't get it. Or just can't do it in an exam. Thats why Mathematicians make rubbish Maths teachers... you need someone who gets it, but doesn't find it a walk in a park.

By design, 30-40% of students fail. That doesn't mean they didn't get the right score. The pass score is set after all the scores are known. Say one year most students got a score above 65/120, the pass rate gets set at 80/120, so 30-40% fail. It wouldn't matter if the next year 100% of students got a score above 100/120, they would just set the pass mark at, say, 110, so that anyone with a score of 100-110 failed, even though the previous year they would have passed.

There is no way for the bottom 30-40% of scorers to win. They will fail, no matter how well they do.

That's the thing my 18 year is Diabetic and calculate,s his insulin on a daily basis ,as it keeps him.alive ,but is really struggling to.achieve a four.

It’s 18, not 25. A simple google will show you that!

It's not compulsory to retake until you're 25!. In fact over 16 nobody will be chasing your kids to make sure they're in education at all. BUT for most college courses they will need to retake if they don't have the pass. But generally if the fail the first resit they are offered functional skills instead. Most jobs will require 4 in maths and English or equivalent as a basic minimum level as will all university courses.

What do you want a medal praising you for perfect parenting? Oh no, because despite what you believe your child’s academic prowess is nothing to do with you but rather an innate ability or inability to excel at a particular subject.

Not every single child is the same. I was incredibly bright at school, many years ago, I got all A’s at GCSE’s before they even gave A stars however I barely scraped a C in maths. In fact it nearly broke me trying to do it.
Im a fully functioning adult in society, have a decent job. Im actually a TA and spend my days helping children like me do maths. I also have a huge amount of empathy and compassion which you seem to lack.

The idea that people can be made - forcibly - to resit maths until they're 25 is really bizarre.

And wholly silly.

Who'd pay for all the resits for a start?

You really don't need to do much more than "basic numeracy" to get a grade 4. Basically, just a quarter of the syllabus and you're probably there.

That will be basic level fractions, percentages, etc which are "life skills", a small amount of simple algebra (again a basic life skill), maybe a simple task like the area and circumference of a simple shape like a square or circle - again pretty simple "life skill".

You really don't need to be able to solve complex equations, calculate the area of a sphere, or the area of a trapezium, or derive the compound interest equation to get a grade 4!!

The key is to ignore the stuff that's beyond you and spend the time on getting the 20/25% of the marks that you need for the grade 4 by spending more time making sure you get all marks available on the simpler/basic questions and the first parts of the harder questions which are usually simple to pick up a mark or two.

Look at this paper here

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/1170ee44760aa53249c184343b19e67944c49a52.pdf

At about Q15, we start getting linear inequalities, nth term,internal angles of a polygon, translations,volume of a hemisphere and algebra with machines working at different rates.

Difficult stuff for many people.And is it useful maths for most people?

as has been explained several times the grade four pass Mark is closer to.60% on the foundation paper.

I know many young people who struggle to get a grade 4 in maths and they are bright and intelligent people. Some people just don’t cope well taking on board information and then regurgitating it in exam situations but if they had a job where they needed to use maths for a specific function and someone showed them how to do it I’m sure they’d be fine. In the real world if you get stuck with a mathematical problem you have a calculator and chatGPT in your pocket anyway!

My son has learning disabilities. He’s 23 and still in education. He has to do his English and maths gcse every year. Last year he finally got a grade 1 in maths after a few years of U. He also got a 1 in English again.

It’s ridiculous that this is something he has to do. He will never ever get a 4. He comes out of maths lessons and tells me he’s done fractions, for example, but can’t tell me what that means.

The only saving grace is he’s very laid back, likes lessons, and exams don’t stress him. If they did I wouldn’t let him do them.

Of my other sons 3 passed first time and 1 is retaking again (also has SEN)

I failed mine first time (got an E) refused to go to a college that would have made me retake it and then passed with a C when I went back to evening classes at 23.

Is that true?

Are you saying that they look at the people who have taken the Foundation Maths paper and say - we are going to set a Grade 4 so 30% will not get it.

Because how come they keep talking about the GCSE Maths pass rate changing every year if it's designed to be the same pass rate?

Well woohoo for him. My daughter got 6s and 7s in her mocks and then completely fell apart in her actual exams and only ended up with a 5 and two 4s. The rest she failed, it was a massive shock to be honest, she just panicked.

You are talking about the Higher Paper

This is a Higher Paper

https://cdn.sanity.io/files/p28bar15/green/fc9ef8262b581fcc2228663a1afda68985a45db0.pdf

Yes that is how GCSEs are marked across the board. The pass mark does vary from year to year but the percentage allocated to each grade boundary remains the same

SATs is exactly the same BTW so last year had an awful maths paper so the pass mark was lower the number who passed was the same

Jesus. The fucking ableism on this thread. I have 2 intelligent sons. Lockdown and some family issues destroyed them in different ways.

DS1, who is way better at maths than me, got a 3 or 4 (I can't remember which). He has 'failed' his English (grade2) 3 times. He's is perfectly literate, but just can't do the exam.

DS2 has always been above average in everything. By year 11 he wasn't in school due to EBSA. I was more concerned that his MH would deteriorate even more than what grades he got. I honestly never would have guessed a year or 2 earlier that we'd end up there, but we did.

So to say it will be a cold day in he'll before I let my DC leave without passing
Or Barring extreme learning difficulties and SEN how hard is it to get a 4 and to scrape a pass? is so fucking offensive. You have no idea. Any I sincerely hope you never find out.