To think the idea of "family" can can be really cruel

[Mannatan]

Family is the idea that you love these people more than anyone else, because they are related to you.

That makes life nice for the people in that family. But i think it can also lead to a lot of cruelty.

For example the family will favour that family member over anyone else, even if the person in the family is wrong. There is no fairness.

One example that happened to me. I have a cousin the same age as me. She has a younger sister and brother. The oldest one has always been wild and argumentative and cruel. She can be difficult to get along with.

Her younger sister is a really peaceful lovely lovely person. Ive been friends with her all my life since we were young kids, and ive never had a single argument with her.
Ive also always got on along really well with the brother. We have all known each other since we were very young.

Myself and the oldest cousin had a very bad argument last year. I feel that she was the one that was totally in the wrong. She can be very spiteful and cruel. So we argued and we dont speak anymore. But the argument was between the two of us.

After this happened, both her younger sister and younger brother deleted me on social media and wont speak to me again either.

They didnt even ask me about what happened. They refuse to speak to me.

They just both took their sisters side automatically, as she is their closer family member. Which is so unfair.

Ive seen this happen to other people aswell. Like my friend house - shared with two sisters. In any argument they would always take each other's side straightaway, and never even ask what happened.

I know its nice that families have each other's back, its nice for them. It benefits them. But its cruel for other people

"You know a lot of weirdly quarrelsome people"

Eh are you new on mumsnet?

The vast majority of posts on mumsnet are about people arguing with their family, partners, colleagues, other school mums, friends etc

Thanks for the post

See thats what im talking about. You wrote "if he fell out with any of our mutuals badly enough to cut them off'

You wrote that like it is always going to be the other person's fault. What if it is your brother's fault?
What if he does something nasty and makes the other person not want to speak to him again. And its not the other person' fault.
Do you not think that your brother is capable of any wrongdoing?

And how many of those arguments involve people recruiting their entire family to get involved?

That doesn’t mean that’s the majority of people you know in real life.

You need to spend less time time on the Internet.

I’m quite sure my brother is capable of wrongdoing, we all are. But I just don’t care enough about any mutual friend to put them before my brother. I would put my relationship with him first, even if he had been unreasonable.

I understand that you feel hurt and I’m not saying you’re wrong or that it’s your fault, I’m just trying to explain that the bond between siblings can be extremely strong. It might seem unfair but the best course of action might have been to distance yourself from your difficult cousin and not rise to her bait - no matter how right you were or unreasonable she might be - to preserve your relationship with the others. I also understand why you didn’t do this but, if your cousins are close, they are going to support each other

It might seem unfair but the best course of action might have been to distance yourself from your difficult cousin and not rise to her bait - no matter how right you were or unreasonable she might be - to preserve your relationship with the others.
This is a very good point. I mean this kindly, you need to be honest about your part and what you could have done to avoid conflict.
Did you share your dislike often for Sis1 with Sis2?

You wrote that like it is always going to be the other person's fault. What if it is your brother's fault?

Who cares? We always see things through the benevolent filter of people we love.

It takes something extraordinary to decide that, despite being one of your favourite people in the world, you’re going to side with someone else.

Most disputes aren’t 95% one way and 5% the other, they are more even than that. Each person perceives themselves as in the right. And they tell the story from that perspective, just as you are telling us it was all your terrible awful cousin.

I’m sure she’d describe it differently. That’s human nature.

It’s not a Cult Of Family to say “I value this person more than that person, so I am going to give a tolerant ear to their explanation.” We do it with friends, classmates, preferred celebrities, politicians, absolutely everyone.

Im happy for this discussion. Its interesting

But you're not putting the mutual friend before your brother.

You would just be having your own seperate friendship with the mutual friend.

Why, when one friendship dissolves, does a second friendship need to dissolve.

Its like a warring tribe mentality

A lot of families seem to adopt an approach of : you argue with one of us, you argue with all of us. They dont think individually. Its a collective.

I know many people like this, the families living close by and spanning many generations. They are all, without exception, complete and utter dickheads. Small-minded individuals who are incapable of seeing anything from anyone else's point of view, living small (often unhappy) lives with too much time on their hands, lacking in confidence and social skills. They go everywhere as a posse, wouldn't even go to the corner shop by themselves. It's a safety in numbers thing for them I think, they feel threatened by anyone with a bit of independent thought about them and the confidence to live their own life as they please. The minute someone like that disagrees with one of them about anything, however minor, they all act en masse to stamp out what they perceive as the threat.

In the case of your cousins, I should think it's simple self preservation. They have a control freak sibling. She's in their lives. Probably impossible to cut her out of their lives without cutting out everyone else too and becoming estranged from the whole family. So there she stays, controlling everyone and everything that she can. Which means that if your friends, the sister and brother, want a peaceful life then they've no choice but to cut you off when you fell out with her. From their perspective it doesn't matter who was right or wrong, what matters is there's disharmony. If they didn't cut you off I doubt they'd hear the last of it. Not just from control freak sibling either. Other family members would get sick of the drama and the difficult one complaining, so they'd apply pressure for the sister and brother to cut you off, to restore familial peace, too.

No use blaming the "cult of family" ("cult of toxicity" would be better I think, though I agree with you these dysfunctional families do seem a bit like cults), lay blame where it's due. At the feet of the sister and brother who cut you off, when you'd no argument with them. They're part of this dysfunctional family dynamic. They could choose to be part of it and toe the line or they could choose the more difficult road of walking away from it. It comes down to what makes them happiest or what they think is for the best. They've chosen to keep their family over their friendship with you. Their family means more to them. It's not cruelty, it's just life.

If you stay away from those who's lives are filled with drama or who are surrounded by/connected to dramatic people, even if they're not the source of the drama themselves, you'll be less likely to become involved in this type of mess. You are responsible for picking who you choose to hang out with.

In terms of your uncle and his wife, I do wonder why you go round there. Think of it from her perspective. She doesn't like you, for whatever reason (even if the reason is she's a dickhead). She doesn't want you in her home. It's hard to relax in your home when people you don't like are there. So she's unwelcoming to you, no doubt in the hopes you'll come round less often and stay for a shorter time. Instead of expecting her to be something she isn't, why don't you see your uncle outside his family home? If he won't do this, then why force a friendship with him that he isn't overly bothered about, just because he's family? If he wants you in his life, he'll make time to see you. You're the one who's choosing to continue putting yourself in this situation you find unpleasant. Either own your choice and suck up the consequences (getting the evil eye from aunt) or make different choices.

It's up to you what you do with your life. It's not compulsory to spend it surrounded by fuckwits.

"We always see things though the filter of people we love.

I disagree.

I have a brother. He had once an argument with someone and stopped being friends with them.
I didnt stop being friends with the person, just because he did. I'm my own independent person.

Another example. My mum really dislikes one of our neighbours. They argued over something ages ago. I get on well with the neighbour and i still talk to her.

I dont get the hive mind mentality that some families have

I dont get the hive mind mentality that some families have

Giving a tolerant ear to a loved one’s explanation isn’t having a hive mind.

I also don’t think many families have the blinkered mindset you describe of All Or Nothing.

In my experience a significant line has to be crossed to result in such a blanket ban. Which leads me to wonder what your behaviour was like in the disagreement with the “awful” cousin…

It s not because you are family that you are friends.

i have used that motto a lot in the past.

yes we are family, and i would do what i can to help them if i can, but i wouldnt take any crap or feel obligated to them if i didnt want to - thats for my extended family. Some I see, some i dont and i dont feel bad.

for my small circle.
i have always been best friends with my younger sister; my older sister was my sister and i would always be there for her but for the last couple of years we are becoming friends. And that is the best feeling in the world.

so family can only be cruel if you let them be. Dont overthink it, and have healthy boundaries

She didnt give me a blanket ban.
I gave her a blanket ban.

She has abused me many times in the past.

She was so abusive to me on this last occasion, screaming and roaring at me until i was crying, that i told her that i didnt want to see her again. I was honestly scared of her. She can be frightening when she is in a tempwr.

Other people were in the room with us, when she was shouting and screaming at me.

I remember when i left the house,
the person in the car with me said about my cousin "Lily is really scary when she loses her temper. Shes frightening"

Lily, my cousin, also got one of her friends to message me after the argument. The friend is also nasty. She hangs around with a nasty gang.

The friend wrote "You're lucky that Lily just shouted at you, if i was there i would have done more than shout at you. Watch out"

She was implying that she would hit me.

I said that is too far, and i am not seeing her again. Im honestly scared of her and her friends. They are very dark.

Younger sister is so completely different its mad. Older sister went off the rails alll through her twenties. She didnt work at all for a long time

. The younger sister is a manager and is really calm

I'm not sure that has much to do with family.

I love the very bones of my ds but if I catch him being an arse, I make him apologise to whoever is on the receiving end, regardless of who they are.

Allowing my ds to grow up behaving badly is not in his interest so I'd be the first to tell him.

Your cousins just don't sound like very pleasant people. Maybe you are well rid of them

You’re upset about something that is one of the most obvious things to anyone. Well why wouldn’t they naturally and instinctively take their own families side? Would a mother take the side of another child or her own? If you can answer that then you understand what’s happening. They don’t owe it to you to be fair.

That is horrendous.
What happened for this fight to begin, why was she losing her temper with you, not that there is ever a good reason.
Did something serious happen? She was obviously ranting about something?

Isnt she horrendous. Shes just really cruel.

The argument started over her: telling me not to do something. She was trying to control me about something. She has often tried to control me.

It was A minor thing.

And i did it anyway.

She then screamed at me because i had done it And "defied her"

I said to her "you cant tell another adult not to do something, you cant control another adult like that, i never tell you not to do things or boss you around"

So she tried to control me about something. Then she got angry that i went against her control. Then she screamed at me. Then she told me it was my fault that she screamed at me. Then she got her friend to text me to say that she would hit me

Yeah she can be very dark and abusive.