To move DS for the last term of school nursery?

[Persimo]

Details altered to avoid outing.

So DS will be off to reception in September. He used to go to day nursery, where he was popular and well liked, but the day nursery only take children up to 3 years old, so we then sent DS to the school nursery at our preferred primary, school A.

DS liked nursery at school A, except that there is a boy there (let's call him O) who consistently verbally and physically bullies other children, unprovoked. There are several children who O treats like this, and so my DH and I, and several other sets of parents, have gone into school to ask them to stop the bullying. School A claim to have tried to deal with the bullying, but it hasn't stopped.

The problem is, whilst my DS doesn't make a fuss about going into nursery, he unsurprisingly hates being around O. Since being picked on by O, DS's behaviour has really deteriorated. DS now cries at the drop of a hat, and seems to assume the worst of everyone now (i.e: if a child knocks over his block tower, he will now get angry and assume they did it on purpose, whereas in the past it wouldn't have phased him). DS has gone from being very gentle and sweet to being rough and aggressive with other children, he's like a completely different child.

In light of school A's inability to deal with O, DS won't be going there for Reception, he will be going to school B (other parents say it is a very happy school, great ofsted, great sats) instead. However school B doesn't have a nursery. I don't really want DS spending the last 3 months of term being picked on by O but I need the childcare, as I work full time.

There is one other nursery for DS's age group locally, again attached to a primary school (school C). School C has spaces in their nursery, but definitely wouldn't have a space for DS in reception as they are very oversubscribed.

My options are:

1. Leave DS at school A for the rest of the academic year, and then he moves to school B for reception
2. Move DS from school A to the nursery at school C for the last term, then he moves to school B for Reception

I am really torn and would greatly appreciate some advice.

YABU- leave DS where he is until the end of the school year
YANBU- move him, moving nursery and then to a new reception is fine

I would be at nursery everyday asking what they are going to do to safeguard your son from X. What is their behaviour management policy, anti-bullying policy.

You can state that there may be reasons why X targets your DS but it is their responsibility to protect your DS and deal with X not for your DS to suffer to daily.

I work in early years and have worked in 3 different nurseries with friends at other nurseries and I can assure you there is an O at every nursery or school.

personally I wouldn’t move my child but would encourage them to be more verbal when this child is near them.

staff do our best but to say that a nursery child is a bully is wrong, the bullying word is banded about far too much.

The O we have has additional support needs, needs 1-1 support which the LA won’t provide, their communication is minimal which is frustrating to them, we obviously can’t discuss behaviour with other parents so it may appear we aren’t doing anything to support or stop this child but I can assure you we do.

Yeah I agree with this.

I would be on to them every single day. I’d ask for meetings with teachers, parents, managers. I’d write emails documenting it all. Honestly I’d be the biggest pain in their ass until they sorted it out.

@Julimia O is being investigated for potential conduct disorder, so this is not your usual bully. There is no reprieve, he is taunting and hurting the other children all day every day and unfortunately he is smiling while he is doing it, and he isn't sorry when he gets caught. Myself and other parents have had the misfortune of seeing this behaviour first hand at birthday parties. This boy is very bright and physically bigger than the other children, so no chance of him getting a 1:1 via an EHCP. Multiple sets of parents have complained to school about this child's behaviour, as he is unrelentingly physically aggressive and unkind to quite a few of the children. DS was popular and well liked at day nursery (and to be fair is well liked by the other kids at school A), and had no problem dealing with normal tricky kids when he was there, but this kid is next level.

@Bumdishcloths School have had all year to deal with the situation with O and have made no progress, though it was only recently that DS and other parents let me know how consistently bad things were. At the end of the day I am not going to waste my time trying to magically transform the culture of an entire school, if multiple sets of parents have been going in all year about this issue and have been ignored.

DS is naturally a confident and outgoing child, he has lots of friends at his extracurricular, and didn't bat an eyelid about starting at a new school. I have friends with children at schools B and C and both schools are apparently much better at handling bullying than school A.

Move him.

kids adapt really well at that age but get him away from the unpleasant experience.

Why do you think school C wouldn’t take him? If you’re applying directly from the nursery you have a good chance. At such a young age I wouldn’t worry about moving him, they make friends very quickly. But as someone mentioned there could be another O or even a few at the new nursery. I’d go to the head again of the current school and if no luck then the governors. I’ve known nursery children to be suspended for poor behaviour. It’s rare but does happen if the poor behaviour continues and parents aren’t supportive of the school.

Why do you think school C wouldn’t take him? If you’re applying directly from the nursery you have a good chance

Attending a school nursery has no bearing on whether or not a child will be offered a place at the school for reception.

Move him. He's clearly very unhappy. Don't underestimate the impact this is having on him.
You say he makes friends easily, so will likely settle quickly.
And yes, there may also be bullies / very tricky kids at nursery C but overall he'll be in a better position than now.

My DS was bullied in primary, school were ineffective, and we eventually moved him. He is thriving now, and we regret not doing it sooner.

Move him, poor thing.

While you’re waiting for it to go through you could coach your DS on how to deal with O. If O hits him he is to give him a massive wallop back, etc. but really emphasise that he is not to be aggressive or hit anyone else. Teach him not to start fights, but to finish them. Sometimes a softly softly approach just won’t work when you have to send your children to school with yobs.

Unfortunately this "oh well" approach is the problem. Stop damaging the hitting child and the children being hit, enforce discipline. A weird recent training approach encourages some teachers and TAs to consider it isn't bullying when a child has additional needs, but the impact on the children being hit is identical to getting bullied; they are injured, they are sad, and their self-esteem is damaged. Telling those children they didn't shout "no" correctly while the kid thumps them daily and staff shrug is pathetic. The hitting child needs to be given consequences; sat down with writing, no outside play, sit with TA for 20 minutes, no cars play, or whatever works for that child for them to learn the answer is NO you do not hit other kids. Clear explanations "you may not do X today because you hit Y".

Couldn’t agree more!

I would move him. My daughter went to school with no children from her private nursery, and she has been fine, with plenty of friends now in primary 6.

Have you given your permission to wallop O back? My ds was having trouble with a child who was very handsy, we told him to whack him back. I laid my position out to the teacher, saying her methods hadn't worked so we'd be employing our own.
You know what, one good whack and the boy left him alone. I'm not an advocate of violence, but in my instance it was the only thing that worked.

@Sundaydrizzle This boy is unfortunately quite sophisticated. If he gets caught physically hurting other children (he usually only gets physical with other children in one of the 'blind spots' in the room where it is hard for staff to spot him) he just switches to being psychologically abusive, i.e; intimidating the other kids into not playing with the child he is picking on, periodically going up behind the child he's picking on and whispering in their ear that he hates them and isn't their friend, creating 'games' where the rules allow him to be violent (i.e: he is 'just being a wolf' and the other child is 'just being the sheep the wolf eats'). I have just never known such a young child be so sophisticated and so focused in their interpersonal aggression. Most kids this age lash out when they are upset, but this child seems to enjoy what he is doing unfortunately. The parents are seeking psychological support for him as even they are concerned that something is wrong with this child.

Ideally he could stay where he is for the last few months, but he sounds utterly miserable and it’s having a really detrimental effect on his behaviour so I think a move would be better. 3 months is a long time in the life of a 4 year old, I would imagine he would be happier for that time in a new nursery and meeting new people than trying to survive in his current. Also, I imagine it’s keeping you awake and hard to concentrate on work when you know he’s so unhappy, wouldn’t the move benefit your wellbeing as well if you know he is safe and happier.

@Persimo "This boy is very bright and physically bigger than the other children, so no chance of him getting a 1:1 via an EHCP."

This isn't true. Academically able children can get EHCPs, including with 1:1. I'm not sure anyone would diagnose a conduct disorder in a pre-school child but it sounds like this child certainly needs intensive support under social and emotional health criteria and if the parents haven't applied for an EHCP (and if you know them well enough to suggest this) they definitely should. It could be that he's getting some kind of satisfaction from the other children's responses - which may be sensory, rather than emotional - or it may just be that this level of control, cruel as it is, helps him make sense of a classroom he finds overwhelming. It's horrible for both O and your DS, and - as a parent of a SEN kid who did sometimes hurt others in nursery - I can see why you've got to the end of your tether. I'm quite surprised they haven't asked O to leave (we nearly got to this point with my DS, and he was not this bad.)

I'm not sure I'd try transitioning into another nursery at this point. Is a short term nanny an option? Could you take unpaid parental leave for an extra month and pull him out early?

@BusMumsHoliday it's horrible isn't it? At the end of the day, if school handled O properly, this wouldn't be happening to the other children, and other parents wouldn't feel so negatively towards him. Both nursery classes are in one classroom, and one teacher always seems to be being poached to go and help with other classes, so realistically school stands no chance of sorting this out.

If it’s for one term I’d choose a childminder. There is no point trying to make new friends and then having to move again as they all go to school together. I think that would be really confusing.

The local childminders are full and I can't afford a nanny or to take the next 3 months off, so it's new nursery or stay where he is unfortunately

The child IS being bullied here. He is 4. Not 16. At 4 he coped with bullying by having adults manage the problem. The adults are not managing the problem.

being 4 and having a known persistent bully that the school is failing to address properly is not the same as ‘moving someone every time someone is mean to them over the next 13 years’

But if what you are doing involves not stopping many children being physically attacked on a daily basis then frankly you are not doing enough.

it is your job to ensure a safe environment. If you are not doing this it really isn’t of any interest nor should it be to other parents what you are doing.

if he situation is one that ultimately you can not manage then the action needs to be removing the child who is attacking other children. Dad thought this is for the unwell child, there is no excuse or valid reason any child should be unsafe in your care.

Move him.
Don't let him be bullied.

I would be concerned that there may be another O at the new nursery. My experience as a parent is that there is usually at least one O everywhere.

I would struggle to go to work every day knowing my small child was in an environment where the adults are not able/ willing to protect him from being physically harmed and/ or frightened.

But it is.