Can someone help me unpick this RE: Trans men

[LostInSpuds13]

i know there has already been a lot of threads discussing various aspects of the SC ruling, please point me in the direction of a relevant thread if this has already been discussed.

I am in full support of the ruling and very much value single sec spaces.

i have tried on multiple occasions to read the full ruling but am dyslexic and its A LOT of pages to take in so I may be missing things.

I understand that the ruling has clarified sex as biological, which means TW can’t access female spaces
And presumably also means TM shouldn’t use male only spaces but can use women’s.

But I then came across a thread (which I now can’t find!) where someone said that TM can be denied access to women’s spaces if their presence could cause concern, so I did a bit of googling and came across this from the BBC

”The guidance also states that "in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological women) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities".
When asked to clarify this, the EHRC pointed to a section of the Supreme Court ruling stating that trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken" in the context of a women-only service”

is this correct?

I’m asking because I know some with say you can ALWAYS tell, and I know that in most cases that’s true, but I personally know a TM through work (who is actually all for the ruling and very much against the trans activism, it’s my understanding he transitioned around 20 years ago and have just tried to quietly get on with life) and I honestly had no idea until he chose to share it with me, because he looks and sounds very male, is quite tall. And I wouldn’t say he’s got particularly feminine hips etc. Hes got a GRC and has had full surgery. I can certainly see women objecting to him being in women’s spaces
And to be honest, I wouldn’t say object to it
i know he is biologically female, but I also know he has had a ‘penis’ constructed.

im not saying i think my colleague will assault me, but I have gotten to know him, any new employees may not feel comfortable

Until the ruling he used the men’s, which all the men were fine with

now, he use the disabled facilities as hes concerned about using the men’s if it’s against the law, as the disabled facility is our only third space it’s the only option although some people disagree with this also because hes not disabled.

So in this instance, where is he supposed to go?
He can’t go to the men’s because of biological sex
But can’t go to women’s because it could cause distress to women.

i know a third space that isn’t a disabled facility is the solution, but what if their isn’t one?

I also know it isn’t people like my colleague who’ve made the ruling necessary, but it just got me wondering

I feel for trans men. To generalise, I feel that they don’t shout about their “rights” like some trans women do. I don’t know what the solution is, maybe a third space. I don’t imagine that any men feel threatened by trans men.

A transman who has gone through full surgery is still a woman. People can’t change sex

trans men could be excluded from women's facilities

It seems like your colleague is self excluding. Perhaps they need to get clarification.

If men haven’t challenged them in men’s loos for the last 20 years why would they now?

what is the actual change they’ve experienced that’s forced them into the disabled loo?

Most people have never had a problem with transpeople at all and many don't even know any.

There just aren't that many of them around. Certainly not enough to justify the level of vitriol and ignorant scapegoating we see all around.

Careful there with the zealous de-humanizing, because the next one who comes out could be your child or even your spouse.

Trans people have an astronomically high suicide level.

Be kind and don't be quick to judge things you know nothing about.

Regarding your “suicide” allegations- what utter bollox.

In reality they carry on using the men’s if they feel safe doing. The issue is male pattern violence which is a massive risk to women. It is also a risk to transmen and transwomen but studies have shown that patterns of violence follow biological trends.

The issue was never really trans people like your friend - it was men self-identifying as women for dodgy reasons being allowed into women’s single sex spaces

No acceptance of self-ID leading to access to single sex spaces = no problem

Again men have ruined it for everyone. Their shouty pissy protests about their rights have turned people right off anything trans and this is the outcome, females getting the shit end of the stick.

OP, you're questions aside, how do you manage to write so well for someone with dyslexia?

My daughter, cousin and SIL all have dyslexia and would struggle to not only spell as well as you, but also to structure sentences, paragraphs etc in such a clear, coherent manner.

This is something I’ve been wondering about to. More worryingly, could this open the door for biological men to go into women’s toilets and just say they’re trans men?

A lot of fictional 'passing' transmen have appeared lately. I'm not sure I believe they exist in real life. They certainly wouldn't be able to use a urinal so I question how many have been using male toilets before the Supreme Court ruling.

You do know that men's toilets don't just have urinals, right?

Well I had no idea the actor who plays matty in emmerdale was a transman.

@IHeartHalloumi if they’re had surgery why wouldn’t they be able to use a urinal? But yes, as PP said, I’m pretty sure the men’s also has stalls.

@JasmineAllen
it is mostly reading I struggle with, taking in large amounts of info. But I also have software that helps with my spelling and grammar on my pc

@AquaPeer
Following the ruling out company issued a statement making it clear they’d enforce the ruling, quite rightly
So they can’t use the mend anymore

They feel uncomfortable using the women’s, as would many of my colleagues
it doesn’t matter if we ‘know’
This person presents and lives as a man
We have chosen to respect that

That doesn’t mean we deny biological sex and indeed nor does my colleague.
Theyve never claimed to ‘be’ male.
only to present as such

Maybe @IHeartHalloumi has led a very sheltered life. Or maybe she has unknowingly encountered transmen but for some inexplicable reason they didn't feel comfortable disclosing their personal details to her. Can't imagine why.

Your claim about suicide has been thoroughly debunked. The government ordered an investigation because of the number of utterly unsubstantiated claims like yours. Have a search of the #protectthedolls on Twitter as you seem incredibly sheltered and ignorant about what is actually going on. You think it’s just one gentle man in every 100000 toilet users that’s blending right in and minding his business, don’t you? I was once like you until I was flashed at by a man in the ladies’ toilet and then took more interest in the topic.

This is exactly the problem with the loud vocalisation by activists is that it's put people who have quietly lived life and been accepted into horrible situations.

If you'd asked me 10/15 years ago I'd have had a much more Liberal attitude but the activism has forced me amd others to develop GC position.

The activism has pushed trans rights back further than they were to start with.

In reality, if a third space wasn't available your employer would need to find a workaround.

There will be trans men using women’s toilets / changing rooms, who look like men and will be challenged for being in there, even though they have vaginas.

There will also be biological men who now know they just have to say they were born female and nobody’s gonna check down their pants.

The risks continue and the only answer is fully enclosed unisex toilets, with basins in them too. If I had a business I’d be ripping out the old loos and making them all unisex, I’d get those toilets with a sink above them if space was tight.

if they’re had surgery why wouldn’t they be able to use a urinal? But yes, as PP said, I’m pretty sure the men’s also has stalls.

My understanding is that very few would be able to 'pee standing up'. The so-called penis is basically just a role of skin. They need to use a pump type thing for the most basic functions - it doesn't work like any actual penis.

Which also means that they're not capable of committing sexual violence with it either. Even if they wanted to, which I doubt they do.

Trans people have an astronomically high suicide level

No they don’t, and constantly repeating this is actively harmful to the trans community you’re supposedly aiming to support.

He should use the mens, he's not a threat to men the way a trans woman could be a threat to women. He's had full surgery which puts him in the minority, most don't have full surgery which is why they are still considered to be a risk.

@TheKeatingFive
Phalloplasty typically includes a stage where the urethra is lengthened and routed through the created ‘penis’ to make peeing standing possible.

@Dramatic yes he should, but legally he is not allowed to because it is a single sex space for those who are biologically male

Yes he is legally allowed to.