Can someone help me unpick this RE: Trans men

[LostInSpuds13]

i know there has already been a lot of threads discussing various aspects of the SC ruling, please point me in the direction of a relevant thread if this has already been discussed.

I am in full support of the ruling and very much value single sec spaces.

i have tried on multiple occasions to read the full ruling but am dyslexic and its A LOT of pages to take in so I may be missing things.

I understand that the ruling has clarified sex as biological, which means TW can’t access female spaces
And presumably also means TM shouldn’t use male only spaces but can use women’s.

But I then came across a thread (which I now can’t find!) where someone said that TM can be denied access to women’s spaces if their presence could cause concern, so I did a bit of googling and came across this from the BBC

”The guidance also states that "in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological women) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities".
When asked to clarify this, the EHRC pointed to a section of the Supreme Court ruling stating that trans men could be excluded from women's facilities "where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken" in the context of a women-only service”

is this correct?

I’m asking because I know some with say you can ALWAYS tell, and I know that in most cases that’s true, but I personally know a TM through work (who is actually all for the ruling and very much against the trans activism, it’s my understanding he transitioned around 20 years ago and have just tried to quietly get on with life) and I honestly had no idea until he chose to share it with me, because he looks and sounds very male, is quite tall. And I wouldn’t say he’s got particularly feminine hips etc. Hes got a GRC and has had full surgery. I can certainly see women objecting to him being in women’s spaces
And to be honest, I wouldn’t say object to it
i know he is biologically female, but I also know he has had a ‘penis’ constructed.

im not saying i think my colleague will assault me, but I have gotten to know him, any new employees may not feel comfortable

Until the ruling he used the men’s, which all the men were fine with

now, he use the disabled facilities as hes concerned about using the men’s if it’s against the law, as the disabled facility is our only third space it’s the only option although some people disagree with this also because hes not disabled.

So in this instance, where is he supposed to go?
He can’t go to the men’s because of biological sex
But can’t go to women’s because it could cause distress to women.

i know a third space that isn’t a disabled facility is the solution, but what if their isn’t one?

I also know it isn’t people like my colleague who’ve made the ruling necessary, but it just got me wondering

As far as I can tell the onus is on organizations to provide a third space for those who’s transition has been such that they could deceive people (what is referred to as passing) and therefore could cause consternation in the correct single sex facility.

Such a shame the trans activists didn’t spend the last 10 years campaigning for this.

@Dramatic

Except he isn’t

The Supreme Court says that it is lawful to exclude trans men from women’s spaces (at paragraph 221):
“Women living in the male gender could also be excluded [from a women’s service] under paragraph 28 without this amounting to gender reassignment discrimination. This might be considered proportionate where reasonable objection is taken to their presence, for example, because the gender reassignment process has given them a masculine appearance or attributes to which reasonable objection might be taken in the context of the women-only service being provided.”

But this does not mean they have a right to use the men’s toilets, from which they are excluded by rule. Men also have a right to privacy and dignity”

Right but in the real world where he has fully transitioned and can't be mistaken for a woman then he should and could use the mens.

From Sex Matters

Tbh i don’t care what toilet trans men use. I’ve not yet seen a single trans man who isn’t easily identifiable as a woman anyway. If a woman has pumped herself full of testosterone and looks exactly like a man then she’ll probably use the mens facilities. If she is ‘butch’ but is obviously a woman (which is often the case) then, as far as I’m concerned, she’s perfectly welcome in the ladies. Why would any woman feel threatened by a trans man??

It isn’t right for women to use the men’s just because they pass. There will be men who would feel very uncomfortable to have been sharing space with a woman like that.

I’d say (and many would not agree with me) that such a person has disabled themselves through surgery and hormones and so the disabled toilet is appropriate.

I think that it would be very dangerous to say transmen should use the men's as most transmen are vulnerable teenage girls, maybe in binders, with short hair.

The reality is that your friend passes well and could go under the radar. What they shouldn't do is allow themselves to be used as a gotcha for allowing men more access to women and sending vulnerable teenage girls into male spaces.

Campaigning for a separate unisex individual toilet would be a good thing, work place wise.

I believe the success rate of this is pretty low

The overwhelming majority of ‘transmen’ are instantly recognisable as women. They should use the women’s facilities.

The ultra rare ‘transman’ who has the outward appearance of a tall/large man will need to self-exclude and use other facilities. Sorry. Maybe sorting out this provision is what stonewall could actually usefully do now - instead of dicking about in women’s dedicated spaces. (Pun intended)

They're not fictional. You obviously would be super surprised to see how many are around you. They blend in so seamlessly it's uncanny.

See, this type of vehemently expressed ignorance is exactly what I'm talking about. The very high suicide rate of transpeople is easily discovered with a quick internet search. It is not in question. Please learn before arguing.

No. What you're suggesting here is utter nonsense that's been debunked multiple times. Do better.

I would be surprised if there were ‘so many’, yes. Aren’t we always being told trans people are just a tiny minority?

Which is it?

Google is your friend. Also, mind your own business and you won't need to overly focus on trans trivia. Leave people alone.

It's a lie, and you should not be promoting a harmful lie that vulnerable people may believe.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/dispelling-the-suicide-myth/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

https://www.city-journal.org/article/aclu-attorney-confesses-transgender-suicide-claim-is-a-myth

It's extremely low, and usually involves multiple revisions and a high complication rate. I really hope OPs friend has not had phalloplasty as it's extremely likely to cause long term health issues

The results of a 2021 international survey1 of 129 female-to-male patients who underwent genital reconstruction surgery support anecdotal reports that complication rates following genital reconstruction are higher than are commonly reported in the surgical literature.
Complication rates, including urethral compromise, and worsened mental health outcomes remain high for gender affirming penile reconstruction. In total, the 129 patients reported 281 complications requiring 142 revisions.
Another paper2 found a 70% complication rate in one type of female-to-male genital reconstruction surgery.
Even with the “radial forearm free flap” method of creating a synthetic penis — “considered by many as the gold standard for phalloplasty”3 — there are high rates of complications, with up to 64% urethroplasty related complications4.

https://statsforgender.org/category/medical-transition/

Edited, missed out quote

Realistically I think trans people who actually pass will continue using the toilets that align with their gender.

A transman with facial hair is unlikely to be questioned in the men’s toilets if they use a cubical. Whereas it’s true they are likely to be challenged in the women’s.

The transwomen that you see on the media don’t tend to ‘pass’ - mainly I think because their dress & behaviour screams ‘look at me!’ So you look harder than you would have done, and then it’s obvious. If the stereotype they went for was ‘middle-aged mum’, then they’d be much more likely to get away with it.

Obviously, if someone is known to be trans at work, then sliding under the radar isn’t possible. But likewise they wouldn’t be challenged for using the facilities that match their sex, or that 3rd space is needed.