To wish people understood that saying women can do what men can do isn’t doing much for equality?

[Luuccqep]

I know this is a bit of a rant. Just feel utterly despairing sometimes. My colleague has severe period pain and associated medical condition which means every month she can barely move and feels rubbish for around 24 hours.

In our industry there are large companies that allow women to have a day off a month for menstrual related reasons. Our company is not one of them and we have been campaigning for this, only to have been met by other women in particular saying that we are undermining feminism by suggesting women need a day off a month due to biological differences.

I find this sentiment utterly depressing. Women DO have periods. Some women DO need to rest when their period arrives. Saying we can do what men can do makes me sick… I don’t want to do what men can do. I want the world to treat women with respect and to respect their needs as women.

Why are so many women resistant to stand up for other women? It’s not just in relation to this point but lots of other points too. Often women are quick to feel being equal is being like a man. That’s not equality.

We can't do what men can do, I wish people would understand that.

If you had two building sites, one staffed by women, the other by men, men's site would be far more efficient and the work would get done quicker. That's not being sexist. Men Are just far stronger.

The idea that we are equal is bollocks.

No offence.

Workplace considerations shouldn’t be a race to the bottom.

Sorry I disagree, whilst some women are adversely affected by periods the vast majority are not. It would be completely disproportionate to officially sanction time off for women because it would put companies off hiring women even more, maternity leave is enough of a put off!

I’ve made it the menopause having not as much as popped a paracetamol on my period, and many women are like me, they might not be fun but no need to take time off unless medically indicated

Women are only downgraded by their biology by those who consider men to be the norm at work.

That is not a workplace built for women, and it’s almost certainly a work place that places a value on presenteeism.

And yes women can do everything (bar father babies). My own dd is doing a job until 12 years ago women were banned from doing, she’s very successful (so far, early career)

I agree that the working world needs to be made to work for women just as it has always worked for men. Men are not the default! Women can of course do as much work as men overall, but may need to be allowed to flex around periods and other aspects of being a woman.

This shouldn’t be looked down on. Men may also have reasons why they need to be flexible - certainly in individual cases.

Women’s traditional roles didn’t give time off for periods etc either so it’s not like we were being heard and accommodated before!

As someone who’s worked in the construction industry for nearly 30 yrs I’m sorry that’s wrong & a huge generalisation
Building isn’t just about brute strength and most women who work on sites are held in high regard because it’s not just about strength.
An efficient site runs on an attention to detail, organisation, stamina and building skills. I have met & worked with excellent women bricklayers, plasterers, plumbers, joiners and electricians and also many of the better builders I know are not muscly men who are particularly strong but one’s who’ve honed their skills to work well, with quality and as such are quicker.

Not every woman could work on a building site but it’s also fair to say a hell of a lot of men couldn’t either.

An efficient site also takes everyone to get on and in my career the only people we have ever had issues with were very macho men who think that their muscles are all they need to do they job (usually with a huge chip on their shoulder)

I have through my position had the pleasure to meet some of the new generation of women in the trades and it’s fantastic to see how well they do and what an asset they are to sites. Equality and Equity are different things.
Equity is the opportunity to throw away preconceptions and use all people’s strengths to better serve everybody.

The appropriate way to deal with this is to legislate that systems like the Bradford Formula (used by some employers to penalise and victimise people who have frequent short work absences) are a form of ablism/disability discrimination and that any worker of either sex whose health status is such that they will need occasional days off should be allowed a flexible working pattern that enables this. Employers should have to apply, with rigorous evidence required, for specific roles to be designated as inappropriate for any kind of flexibility like this (which should be a rare exception with employers generally expected to structure business operations to allow some flexibility). This could be enforced with a punituve additional rate of Employers National Insurance for any business where more than 10% of roles are designated as inflexible.

If your colleague has an issue such as endometriosis, or any other long term health issues that affects her period and the amount of pain felt then she can ask for reasonable adjustments, such as WFH for example when she is affected or being able to take time off and make up her hours later on by working longer days.

A blanket policy is not really appropriate as not all women will be affected in this way.

If I took a day off each month I'd be out of a job long before a year was up.

I love this answer. Women may need to take a different approach as a result of physical strength to some aspects of a job, but it doesn't mean they can't do the work or will be slower.

Comes back to the old, 'the only way to do this is the way men do it'. It's also another example of how we homogenise women in a way we don't with men in the workplace. 'Not all women can do this' too often equates to 'no women can do this'. We don't do that to men, do we? We don't say, 'not all men, therefore no men'.

A whole site with only women, no men to take your the slack is completely different.

@minnienono can you not see from your own post the deep misogyny?

We shouldn’t be trying to pretend women don’t need maternity leave or don’t have periods or menopause. We should be stopping the reluctance to employ women for these reasons.

@DrCoconut yes that’s my point

I like you! People using medical issues as an excuse for behaviour will never not be tiring

This is exactly how I feel about it too.

Furthermore, I would not want to have to say to my employer whenever I am on my period. It's private. I realize some communication is necessary around this issue, but having to say to my employer every time I am on my period is humiliating. Even if I did have special days available to all women, I would do my level best never to need them.

We shouldn’t be trying to pretend women don’t need maternity leave or don’t have periods or menopause. We should be stopping the reluctance to employ women for these reasons.

No-one in UK is pretending maternity leave isn't needed or a thing.

No-one is saying some women have terrible period or bad menopauses - what most are saying is that it is not all women.

I think it's more misogyistic to expect women to spend years in pain before medical professionals take it seriously. Giving women days off to sit around in pain rather than quicker access to treatments or better pain management seem wrong thinking to me.

I don't think I'd have wanted period days in office in my 20s - I already in male enivronments had to fight for training which should have been mine last think I'd have welcomed was another reason to deny me that or pay me less It's not like pregeant and scewed isn't still a thing despite laws against it - both my sister and I have encountered it.

We shouldn't be pretending every woman is so debilitated by periods and menopause they all need time off either.

I don't think giving menstruating women a day off each month is fair or reasonable. If they are too ill to come in then they can take a sick day. PMS surely counts as an illness? Being hormone related doesn't make it less debilitating.

What might work though is flexible working so that people who need it can take this rest time regularly and make up the hours during the month. But it would have to be for everyone. As PP said, who wants the whole office tracking their menstrual cycle?

I think it's more misogyistic to expect women to spend years in pain before medical professionals take it seriously. Giving women days off to sit around in pain rather than quicker access to treatments or better pain management seem wrong thinking to me.

100% this. I suffered with severe endometriosis, menopause was like getting my life back. I struggled into work on many days when I had been up most of the night with severe pain and vomiting. My endometriosis affected my days off too so I would much rather have received effective treatment than a day (I would have needed 3) to stay at home feeling awful.

Of course companies would be reluctant as it means they’ve got half their workforce flaking off work monthly.

I just cannot get onboard with period leave. Far from it being a progressive measure, it’s naff, and paints women as stupidly vulnerable and feeble. It’s a no from me.

Well periods impact women differently so some may feel you are putting them at a disadvantage for something they don’t need and make all women look “weak” as a result.

I think what may work well is having it as an acceptable reason to need to use sick leave.

I do agree that “equality” need not mean “sameness” but we are far from that mindset.

No, it is entirely reasonable and the only way in which we can arrive a real equality. Women's biology affects how we work. Men do not have these problems. Work in an equal society would take into account women's menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, menopause etc - not doing so cripples women in their employment and in attaining success. Men don't have these problems/life events, though paternity leave of course is a very good idea.
What makes women think that other women should put up and be quiet about perfectly normal functions of our bodies which nonetheless mean that we are not always at 100%?
Women are not men, they cannot do anything a man can do. Employment policy in an equal society would accept this and no-one would complain that women got extra days off. Doubt men would put up with stomach cramps for twenty-four hours and stil do their work - so women should not be expected to either.

We are equal. Just not as strong. I doubt the men's building site would be more efficient than the women's, but it might operate in a different way. Different doesn't mean not equal.