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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU my brother is arranging Power of Attorneys that offend me?

93 replies

NDFB · 26/04/2025 18:51

My brother and I are the only two siblings, late 40s/early 50s. About five years ago he unilaterally arranged, without consultation with me, two Power of Attorneys (PoA) for our elderly mother. He appointed himself PoA over her finances and me over her health. Why do this? And why split the responsibilities? We should both be jointly overseeing her finances and her health. Last week, he sent me a PoA to sign (without prior knowledge, again), asking me to be JOINT PoA with his brother in-law, for his own health. I have never met BIL, don't even know his name. And to add insult to injury, brother has already appointed BIL SOLE PoA over his finances! And all this would be to take effect only AFTER my brother's wife has died! So, the scenario is: my brother's wife has died, he himself is mentally or physically incapacitated, eg on a life-support machine, and decisions have to be made regarding keeping-going or switching-off; or maybe brother is in nursing-home care etc. Then, a non-family member is now in SOLE control of my brother's finances; and that same person also shares control with me of his health. It is each person's own right to appoint their own PoA(s), but I will not accept having to share decision-making over eg whether to end my brother's life, or not, or decide on care-homes, with a stranger, the brother of my brother's wife, who herself may have been dead already for many years. Insulting, also that as you see, he has cut me out on both counts of having any power over finances, for either him or our mother, despite my always having been very financially savvy and sensible.

OP posts:
Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 26/04/2025 20:25

Hephebe · 26/04/2025 20:16

I might be being very cynical here but I agree with some PPs that there are plenty of PoAs signed into existence without the subject having fully understood what was happening/the consequences.

I don’t think many people realise the new LPA can be registered at any point. You do not have to lose capacity.

in our experience you can simply lodge it with the bank, and you will be given full access, online banking, bank cards etc. they do not check that the account holder has consented or if they are competent.

easily done.

the ole EPA you had to be assessed as lacking capacity before it could be implemented, and I think many people still believe that.

luckylavender · 26/04/2025 20:26

NDFB · 26/04/2025 18:51

My brother and I are the only two siblings, late 40s/early 50s. About five years ago he unilaterally arranged, without consultation with me, two Power of Attorneys (PoA) for our elderly mother. He appointed himself PoA over her finances and me over her health. Why do this? And why split the responsibilities? We should both be jointly overseeing her finances and her health. Last week, he sent me a PoA to sign (without prior knowledge, again), asking me to be JOINT PoA with his brother in-law, for his own health. I have never met BIL, don't even know his name. And to add insult to injury, brother has already appointed BIL SOLE PoA over his finances! And all this would be to take effect only AFTER my brother's wife has died! So, the scenario is: my brother's wife has died, he himself is mentally or physically incapacitated, eg on a life-support machine, and decisions have to be made regarding keeping-going or switching-off; or maybe brother is in nursing-home care etc. Then, a non-family member is now in SOLE control of my brother's finances; and that same person also shares control with me of his health. It is each person's own right to appoint their own PoA(s), but I will not accept having to share decision-making over eg whether to end my brother's life, or not, or decide on care-homes, with a stranger, the brother of my brother's wife, who herself may have been dead already for many years. Insulting, also that as you see, he has cut me out on both counts of having any power over finances, for either him or our mother, despite my always having been very financially savvy and sensible.

Your DB's BIL is definitely a family member whatever you think of the arrangements

Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 26/04/2025 20:28

jacks11 · 26/04/2025 20:20

Even if it was a DIY PoA, it still requires an impartial person to have certified that the individual understands what they are agreeing to and have capacity. This person must be a professional (gp/solicitor/ social worker) or someone who has known the person granting PoA for 2 years, but cannot be one of the appointees, a relative (directly or by marriage) of the person granting the PoA nor the representative.

of course, the impartial person could lie. It’s not a foolproof system. If OP feels her mother has been coerced into signing a PoA, or signed one when she lacks capacity to do so, she can raise an adult protection concern with social work who can assess the situation.

It does not have to be a professional. Or anyone capable of making an assessment of capacity.

in laws POA was done from the internet forms. Signed by the donor, the PoA, witnessed by a friend of the PoA, so not impartial.

i have a copy. No professional signature anywhere. No one signed to say they had checked the donor understood what they were signing.

LudvillasCave · 26/04/2025 20:31

You need to object to the setup with your DM OP and get responsibility shared equally across both areas, immediately.

BassesAreBest · 26/04/2025 20:32

LudvillasCave · 26/04/2025 20:31

You need to object to the setup with your DM OP and get responsibility shared equally across both areas, immediately.

What if OP’s DM doesn’t want that? It’s not for OP to insist.

NewsdeskJC · 26/04/2025 21:35

Refuse.
He sounds like an arse.

LudvillasCave · 27/04/2025 06:32

BassesAreBest · 26/04/2025 20:32

What if OP’s DM doesn’t want that? It’s not for OP to insist.

Show quote history

Yeah in that case just leave it as it is – there’s only something to challenge if it’s OP’s brother who has instigated this, as OP suspects

Badbadbunny · 27/04/2025 06:56

As others have said, your mother must have agreed to all this. Where were you when your mother and brother were discussing/agreeing it? You must have signed yourself to previously agree to be attorney for health. You must have been notified that your brother was attorney for finances. All that’s done and dusted and you’ve missed your chance to object if you didn’t take notice/object at the time.

Re your brothers poa, you can just say no. No one can force you to sign to agree.

It sounds like there is a lack of communication between you and your brother and between you and your mother.

Badbadbunny · 27/04/2025 06:58

Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 26/04/2025 20:28

It does not have to be a professional. Or anyone capable of making an assessment of capacity.

in laws POA was done from the internet forms. Signed by the donor, the PoA, witnessed by a friend of the PoA, so not impartial.

i have a copy. No professional signature anywhere. No one signed to say they had checked the donor understood what they were signing.

Show quote history

It doesn’t need a professional but DOES need an impartial person to sign to say the person making it understands what they’re agreeing to. That can’t be one of the attorneys nor a close relative and must be someone who’s known them a while,such as a neighbour.

Richtea67 · 27/04/2025 07:10

Fidgety31 · 26/04/2025 18:56

Your mum would have given the power of attorney to him - he can’t just apply for it . She has to sign that she is giving it. So I would be asking her why she didn’t want to give it to you too?
Also, it’s really up to your brother who he wants as for his own POA too. You don’t have to accept your part if you don’t want to share it with his brother in law .

This...and if you feel your mum didn't understand what she was signing then there is a process of complaint....I think through the Office of the Public Guardian, but do check their website.

JustMyView13 · 27/04/2025 07:13

My brother and I are the only two siblings, late 40s/early 50s. About five years ago he unilaterally arranged, without consultation with me, two Power of Attorneys (PoA) for our elderly mother. He appointed himself PoA over her finances and me over her health.

I struggle to see how this happened? We have recently sorted LPA for my parents and the attorney has to sign the paperwork. I’m in the UK though so perhaps different if you’re elsewhere. But if you’re in the UK, how has your DB made you an attorney on a LPA without your knowledge?

Second point, it isn’t for you to decide who other people have as their attorney on a LPA. It is for the individual - simply you can decline to be an attorney. So your options on your brothers health are to have some say, or no say, in what happens. It’s controlling to think you’d be entitled to have 100% control in any scenario.

NotMyDayJob · 27/04/2025 07:16

Either OPs brother had committed some sort of major fraud or she just went along with it and is now complaining, perhaps because the bil situation has come up and she’s realised it’s one thing to be bulldozed for your own mother it’s another for some one who is basically a complete stranger.

grow a backbone OP

viques · 27/04/2025 11:47

jacks11 · 26/04/2025 20:20

Even if it was a DIY PoA, it still requires an impartial person to have certified that the individual understands what they are agreeing to and have capacity. This person must be a professional (gp/solicitor/ social worker) or someone who has known the person granting PoA for 2 years, but cannot be one of the appointees, a relative (directly or by marriage) of the person granting the PoA nor the representative.

of course, the impartial person could lie. It’s not a foolproof system. If OP feels her mother has been coerced into signing a PoA, or signed one when she lacks capacity to do so, she can raise an adult protection concern with social work who can assess the situation.

The witness can be anyone, just as long as they are not related to the person the POA is drawn up for. No where on the form does it ask for witness qualifications, only name and address.

viques · 27/04/2025 11:50

Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 26/04/2025 20:28

It does not have to be a professional. Or anyone capable of making an assessment of capacity.

in laws POA was done from the internet forms. Signed by the donor, the PoA, witnessed by a friend of the PoA, so not impartial.

i have a copy. No professional signature anywhere. No one signed to say they had checked the donor understood what they were signing.

Show quote history

If I remember correctly there is a bit In the guidance for the witness that says that they believe that the person understands what the POA entails and are signing with that in mind

Floatlikeafeather2 · 27/04/2025 12:05

Assssofspades · 26/04/2025 18:59

It's ultimately up to your mum (if she has capacity)

And if she didn't have capacity at the time the POAs were taken out, then he has acted illegally, as has anyone else (e.g. solicitor) involved. This is why it's really important to get these things sorted a long time before they are needed. They must be at the instigation of the person whose finances/health is involved. Legally, it's too late once the person is no longer able to handle such things on their own.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 27/04/2025 12:13

This^

But you can decline whatever you like. I really couldn't be arsed about having PoA - it's just a hassle, but sometimes there are no other options. So say no and move on. BTW, whilst you may not know his wife's brother, he definitely is "family" and not a stranger to your brother.

Can't entirely understand why you are taking all this so personally.

Gymly · 27/04/2025 12:28

saraclara · 26/04/2025 19:15

Who has POA and for what is/was your mother's decision. The attorneys don't choose themselves.

So the person you need to ask to explain the decision is your mother, not your brother. She had to have had capacity to choose attorneys. It can't be done once someone has lost capacity. So I'm not sure why you're blaming your brother.

This.

Firstly your mum's PoA is completely separate to your brother's. If you don't want to have your brother's health PoA don't do it. On your own head be it though, because it sounds like you will be next of kin anyway. Having the PoA should just smooth your way if you need to make NoK decisions.

Re your mum's PoA, these are her decisions not your brother's, and your brother didn't "give you" PoA on health. You and your mum signed the paperwork to take it on. Talk to your mum if you are unhappy. It's not a bad idea for you both to share both PoAs in case something happens to either of you. I would approach it from that angle rather than moaning at him for disrespecting you though.

saraclara · 27/04/2025 12:43

Absolutely. My brother and I shared the role for both areas. Otherwise if anything happened to one of us, the other would be left in the shit. Only having one attorney is a bad idea.
Likewise my daughter's share the responsibility for both areas, as my attorneys.

Badbadbunny · 27/04/2025 16:40

viques · 27/04/2025 11:50

If I remember correctly there is a bit In the guidance for the witness that says that they believe that the person understands what the POA entails and are signing with that in mind

Show quote history

People are getting confused. There needs to be witnesses to every signature who are just "witnessing" the signature. But there is another person known as the "certificate provider" who has to be independent and who has to confirm that the person is making the POA by choice and understands what they're doing.

Wingedharpy · 27/04/2025 16:57

Badbadbunny · 27/04/2025 16:40

People are getting confused. There needs to be witnesses to every signature who are just "witnessing" the signature. But there is another person known as the "certificate provider" who has to be independent and who has to confirm that the person is making the POA by choice and understands what they're doing.

Show quote history

The certificate provider can also act as the witness to the signature(s).

Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 27/04/2025 18:35

Badbadbunny · 27/04/2025 16:40

People are getting confused. There needs to be witnesses to every signature who are just "witnessing" the signature. But there is another person known as the "certificate provider" who has to be independent and who has to confirm that the person is making the POA by choice and understands what they're doing.

Show quote history

as far as I’m aware though there are no checks done.

fairly easy to shove a load of documents under a “friends” nose and say oh I’m helping mum with her paperwork, this is her dla, this is her pension form, this is so I can help with her banking etc, do you mind signing here and here and witnessing mum sign this one?

that’s what we think happened. It’s either the that or the “certificate provider” wilfully misled as the donor had no memory of signing POA, let alone having it explained. When you trust the person asking you to sign because they are “caring” for their elderly parent do you really read through it all to check?

no one phones up the certificate provider to check they knew what they’d signed and that they had a responsibility to speak to the donor alone and explain. Or the donor for that matter.

In any case, our solicitor said the certificate provider cannot be held to account anyway if they are not acting in a professional capacity. they cannot assess for competence or for coercive control or abuse- they are not experts and have no training in the field so it’s pretty much a pointless exercise.

Whatsgoingonherethenagain · 27/04/2025 18:39

Oh and what’s really annoying, is if the PoA was done in the above manner, and the donor is competent there is absolutely no comeback as once the PoA is withdrawn by the donor as the OPG no longer have jurisdiction and the investigation is dropped.

it’s a really shit system and wide open to abuse. Very few consequences. To get the money back the PoA had stolen it would be a civil case and who has the money for that?

so they easily got away with it, consequence free.

Hoppinggreen · 27/04/2025 18:48

oviraptor21 · 26/04/2025 19:01

Your brother can't have arranged for you to have POA for your mother without you signing something.

I was made Secondary POA for my Sdad and his daughter was no told, although her nephew was.
That was fun when she found out

AlohaRose · 27/04/2025 18:55

Your brother can appoint whomever he wishes as his own POA. His BIL IS a part of his family. However, he can't have made you a Health POA for your mother without you being aware of it and signing the forms.

ApiratesaysYarrr · 27/04/2025 19:39

mnahmnah · 26/04/2025 18:53

You can’t have been assigned PoA for your mother at his decision only. You would have been sent a copy to sign.

Edited

Exactly. If you were unhappy about the arrangements for your parent, you should have spoken up at that point.

It's perfectly ok to decline to sign the new PoA that you are being presented with, but don't moan about the fact that you signed one that you weren't happy with (you can also formally withdraw from the role as well).