My lovely colleague is making me so frustrated

[thenarnianna]

To the point that I am googling stuff about anger problems and wondering if I have them.

I am a teacher and she is one of my TAs since last September. It feels like she thinks she is the second teacher.

She interrupts me when I'm teaching to make comments about things or children's behaviour.
She interrupts me when I'm managing behaviour eg. I'm purposely waiting for quiet and she starts announcing it to everyone that I'm waiting for quiet and poor me having to wait.
She wants to be in a constant dialogue with me throughout the day. As in, she makes comments about random stuff (like, a child's hair is messy, or it's started raining, or she wants to make a joke about something) constantly and if I don't reply (because I'm focusing on my lesson) she will repeat it until I acknowledge her.
She asks questions all the time about random non-related stuff during lessons ("should we tie so and so's hair up? Should we get the children to wash their hands before this? Do you think so and so will retire soon? Do you think so and so will go to a special school?)
She likes to tell/suggest me things all the time eg. " I really think we should do this'" "I really think you should move that" "I really think so and so should have more interventions".
She disappears sometimes during lessons - then I'll find out she had to go and do "an important job" for someone else...
She goes to the headteacher all the time, often during lessons, about stuff she wants to check (usually things I've said or done, eg. Putting a plaster on someone's knee, she say she must go and check with the headteacher that we don't need to do anything else - rubbish example but basically acts like she has no confidence in anything I do and wants to check everything! I worry the headteacher thinks I'm sending her myself and that I don't know how to do anything!)
She has gone to my line manager about stuff I do that she personally disagrees with (eg having a certain child in a different group, or a certain task I want a group to do) that I have already told her how I want doing.
A few times when I have instructed her to do something in front of the class, she goes "oh but..." and says she wants to do something different or in a different way. Then I repeat the instruction because I actually really need her to do it, and she repeats "oh but..."

I could go on and on. She is honestly a lovely lady and has never said anything mean or bad, but it's like having two teachers in the classroom and I am so done. I come home every day frustrated. I have worked with many TAs and none of them have been like this! They have never questioned me or go against what I say. They don't need constant reassurance or be in dialogue with me throughout lessons.

I feel I can't say anything to her because she's struggling at home at the moment and I think it would tip her over the edge.

Please tell me all this would annoy you too and I'm not being unfair...?

Also watch out for the "shall we do XYZ?" stuff. That's not necessarily innocent mindless chatter either.

I've known a few shit-stirrers do this, then go around saying to others
"OP says we should do XYZ", about her own suggestions, even if you didn't actually say that at all.
Or "OP thinks XYZ", after you've made some vague maybe-you're-right type of response to her asking you something.

Sometimes adding "what do you think of that?" to get some more ammunition from this other person, to shit-stir some more elsewhere with.

The only safe response is an extremely non-commital one that gives nothing away. "Hmm". "We'll have to wait and see". Etc

She could be going around telling people (potentially including child's parents) you've said a particular child is going to a special school, like it's a done deal.

Or telling the parents of some child with gorgeous long hair who is always sent to school with it down "teacher thinks she should wear her hair up", after oh-so-innocently asking you one day if she should tie it back for eg a painting activity.

She's probably telling the head how you love all her suggestions and how you agree they're so much better than the way you'd planned to do things, just because you reluctantly agreed to go along with something to shut her up, etc.

Basically turning everyone against you and making you look totally incompetent.

When you've pulled her up on it, it'll be sniffles to the other staff "she's such a lovely teacher, but I do feel so stressed out. I try my best but she just doesn't seem to value my contribution at all 😢".

This. I’m a retired teacher and had a few TA’s over the years who tried this. Give her the death stare or the hand stop sign and later tell her matter-of-factly that her interruptions are bothering you and she needs to stop. Then if she continues take a longer pause and stare harder 👀. It’s time to be assertive.

@thenarnianna

This is part of the reason I left teaching. Working with TA’s is incredibly hard and I used to often find it easier not to have a TA.
One in particular was constantly undermining. I remember once she brought in lots of beer cans and dirty pizza boxes (from her bin) and put them on a child’s table in the outdoor area - saying she was doing an activity on beach rubbish. We had a health and safety inspection on the same day - the inspector eyed up tuff tray and had no idea what was going on.

No way had I agreed to this activity and she’d just taken over and spread used beer cans and dirty pizza boxes over a tuff tray for children to ‘play’ with. I’d taken the beer cans off the table earlier in the day, but she’d found them and put them back. They had sharp edges and still had the remains of the alcohol inside.

The only thing I can suggest is - even if she is grating on your nerves, try and work with her. She’ll pick up on any vibes - so just compliment her all the time, tell her how amazing she is - even if she is not. I tried complaining about my TA and I ended up being the ‘bad’ person - so I had to work with her rather than against her.

And then I went on maternity leave and left teaching.

This. The hand signals and the death stare to backup an instructive and honest conversation.

God! And I also remember the same TA finding some sharp knives for the children to cut carrots. I told her the knives were too sharp, she ignored me stating ‘the children have to learn and should experience danger’. Two got quite badly cut and she then rounded up all the knives and threw them away.

She just wouldn’t listen!!

I think you need to sit down with her and your supervisor, and have a very clear conversation about roles and boundaries (like not interrupting or taking over). Have your points pre-printed and ready to be signed and put on her file.

Absolutely this!
give her the feedback of your observations of her behaviour and the impact on you and the class.
ask for her opinion and seek a solution

😔 😟 🙁 😢 😭 😿

Oh OP. I cannot tell you how much I can empathise with your post.

In the not too distant past, I also had a TA who drove me to the actual point of insanity. I'm not even joking. My entire personality changed for the duration of the time we worked together (one academic year).

She would frequently strike up conversations with the children when I was getting them settled, say the silliest, most inappropriate things to the children, not supervise them properly and meanwhile she would also tend to drift in and out of 'consciousness' as she seemed to be dissociating off and off through the day. If I asked her to set up an activity, after explaining it in detail, she would get confused and do it wrong, or not do it, or do something completely different to what I asked. If I asked her to set the tables up for a writing activity she would give everyone blunt pencils. She was an experienced TA but didn't understand anything about how children learned and couldn't do the simplest task without messing it up. Oh my goodness, the constant RAGE I had to suppress all day, every day, and I am usually a very relaxed and chilled person. I don't have a temper at all and there were several times I had to leave the classroom to basically silently scream into the abyss! There were times when I would just cry would utter frustration. Once, I asked her to take a small group out to do a writing assessment and saw that she had written down everything for them to copy. I had already told her that we can't give the children the answers during assessments and I know previous colleagues had told her the exact same thing. When I said 'So nobody did anything independently?' She would just look sheepish and say 'um, no'.

I was very, very direct in my communication. It didn't make any difference. I constantly reported it to management and aside from a mediation session between us at the end of Term 1, nothing was done. I kept reporting everything back to SMT amd nobody did anything! This TA had a terrible reputation but for reasons unknown to me, nobody intervened.

But the end of Term 2, I almost had a nervous breakdown and actually went off sick for a short while. Working with this person was making me really unwell, emotionally, mentally and physically. It was like banging my head off a brick wall. When I returned, I told SMT that I would leave if they put me with her the following year. I had an actual calendar that I would cross off each day, like a prisoner!

There are no words to express how working with this person changed me that year. Even now it seems crazy to say but it was absolutely dreadful. By the time I came back from being off sick, I decided to just mentally block her out as much as I could while still being polite and professional. I'd tried every other approach and really just needed to get to the end of the year.

I now have a wonderful TA who you would have to prise out of my cold, dead hands. The difference in my day to day life is astounding!

One thing I have learned is that time does pass and this will be over for you, and then it will be one of life's experiences in your belt, OP. I'm sorry I can't help more, but it will pass.

That would drive me mad! I was a teacher and I'd got enough to do without somebody interrupting my thoughts every two seconds. She's also undermining your authority. Does she work with other teachers too? Do they have problems? Have you talked to her about it? Are you being too patient with her? I'd talk to the Head.

You said that you worry that she might tell people you're rude or unfriendly; don't worry! That suggests that you're just being too nice to her. You can be as friendly as you like outside work but while you're in the classroom you are working. Show a clear distinction between how you interact in work and outside work. Being professional isn't rude and unfriendly - it's doing your job.

I have worked with many TAs and none of them have been like this! They have never questioned me or go against what I say

Are good TAs not meant ever to question a teacher? I find that odd. I expect trainees sometimes to question what I am doing. Sometimes we can both learn. Even in my fifties I can still learn, and I have the humility to accept feedback. I would think it ok for a TA to question stuff, as long as not done in front of the kids in an undermining way.

This is the only response you need here. Obviously.⬆⬆⬆

At my work, the TAs are great but a few act like they know it all. They make comments on the moment but don’t think long term e.g. x is upset you’ve asked him to do this again as he finds it hard. Well yes, but he’s got to keep trying it until he can do it!

I am in a similar situation with TA’s thinking they run the school. Awful!
I would have a word with her though and say that whilst you are teaching it’s best she doesn’t interrupt you and if you ask her to do something, you expect it to be done without question. Tell your line manager and head this is what you are doing (also to protect the sanity of the teacher she’s with next year).

When you are trying to get the class to quiet down, could you preempt her interference by saying, “ watch TA. She’s going to show you what quiet means.”

When she starts chatting about the weather etc. could you say, “let’s concentrate on x task for now.” And be prepared to direct her to the next task.

It seems to me, having her assist is like having another child to manage

Why haven’t you spoken to your boss about this?

In what way is this woman lovely? She's a Holy nightmare! I worked with someone similar and I worked out that she was actually quite thick. Really really dozy. What she lacked in cognition, she made up for in confidence though!! Always thought she was right. She just could not retain information or instructions. I had to write a daily timeline for her and give her written instructions that she could refer to.

She actually left to set up her own counselling and mentoring service (without any qualifications whatsoever).

Talk to the Headteacher - they shouldn't be sitting listening to this woman questioning your judgement on a regular basis. They should be telling her that she needs to speak to you about any concerns she has, after school, not in front of the children. Oh, and they should also be saying that they need to return to the classroom, where they are supposed to be working.

If she pisses off and comes back after helping someone else you just tell her (away from the children) not to do it again. Point out that she is in the classroom for a reason and needs to be there.
You need to catch her after the kids go home one day and be quite assertive. Say you appreciate her commitment but that it's not right for her to undermine your authority in the classroom in front of the children. Say you believe her motives are good, but if it happens again you will take subtle action to stop her, and would appreciate it if she can react to that quickly, without a discussion in front of the children.
She'll have a lot of ifs or buts, like but she thought her suggestion was better or what if X got their hair in the paint. Your response is that there is a time and a place and constantly interrupting the teacher, or questioning their decisions, in front of the children is not the time nor the place.

What she lacked in cognition, she made up for in confidence

This succinctly describes many, many people @StScholastica I'm nicking that!

@thestudio

It’s called the Dunning Kruger effect!

The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the stupid ones are full of confidence - Charles Bukowski.

'I just wish she would understand that the classroom is a workplace and we have a job to do.'
Yep, you need to tell her that.

She's used to being in charge.
She thinks she knows better than you.
You are younger than her so she doesn't at all accept your authority.

She is not professional.

Bite your lip and then make it clear you cannot work with her again.

No point trying to change her, it won't work.

Are you her manager? If yes, manage her. You cannott pussyfot around because she is feeling fragile.
If not, report her.
You're martyring yorself for no reason

I’ve voted YABU because you are in a professional position and dealing with disruptive behaviour is something that you have been trained for! Cut the crap, give her written and verbal feedback & report your grievance to her LM. She’s stopping you from doing your job effectively & undermining you. This shouldn’t be tolerated in any work setting.

She's wildly out of line and you really need to let her know. She doesn't sound nice at all, she is totally undermining you