to be tired of the jealousy towards people who WFH?

[WFHFan]

No one can post a thread about it without someone chiming in threatening if their job can done from home then it could be given to someone in another country or AI could take it.

Other people saying companies want everyone back in the office. Yes some do. Mine doesn't. They do not have the space anymore. Neither will my job go to someone in another country because of expertise and it does involve some critical face to face work. AI can't do it either.

Then some people getting offended saying if someone is WFH they shouldn't do anything else but work non stop. I can work and I do chores, shopping, school pick up, errands. It does not affect the standard or quantity of my work. I don't doubt it does affect some people's work.

I have won two awards for performance already.

Retention of people who can't WFH is it's own challenge, but not the fault of WFH. WFH jobs are in reality golden handcuffs. The wage would have to be really significantly high to tempt me back into a physical job full time. Anyone who does it knows the extent to which it improves your life, it gives back time and allows you to work from other countries. It's almost priceless.

I think people on here are being deliberately obtuse. It’s not one perk, it’s all the perks together. And I’m afraid you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say WFH is so great I’m able to do X,Y and Z and then also say you’re ten times more productive.
Ive always been NHS so I don’t recognise the ‘sitting in front of a computer trying to appear busy’ scenario. I do feel there is so much that you don’t see from home which you do in the office.
The other day I comforted a colleague who was in tears after a stressful visit, spoke to three or four other people in person (who I probably wouldn’t have rang) which alone saved about twenty back and forth emails, caught up with my boss which saved us both a meeting later in the week and checked in on the students to see if they needed any learning opportunities. I learn so much from being in, around my team, that’s just not replicated if we all work from home. And I don’t think that’s specific to health and social care.

A lot of few are hybrid working so doing a combination of the two. Some are entirely WFH.

It is possible to have it both ways to be more productive and be able to X, Y and Z.

I worked in a hospital for years and obviously it was different. There was no WFH then. But in my current role, there is no need to be in the office anymore than 1-2 days a week. Sometimes I don't need to be there even for 1 day.

We can say that. Because for most of us, we're doing XYZ in what would have been our commuting time. Or on our lunch break instead of wasting it walking round the town centre (or wherever the office is) or sitting in the canteen.

It gives us time back in our day outside of working hours. And for a lot of us, not having the constant distraction of chatting means we are more productive. Some aren't, but then WFH may not be for them.

I go into the office once a week. I hear stuff then, but also have lots of people chatting around me (much as it was when we were all in) or I'll walk over to someone to ask a question (yes, a positive of being in the office) and end up chatting to them about how their kids are or something.

And some office/desk based jobs do have lulls where you're waiting for things to come back to you. Not all, but some. And if you were in the office you can't just stop working so you have to find a way to appear busy. Whereas at home, if I finish my paper and send it for review and the referrals are quiet and my big project finished last week and my next one doesn't start discovery til tomorrow, I can take twenty minutes to hang the washing out, by which time there'll have been a referral or two come in I need to handle.

Done right, both ways can work. People do it wrong, so then others get annoyed. But that's not the fault of WFH that's the fault of the employers and managers letting it happen.

Skimming this thread is really interesting.

I am not more or less productive at home. I have always worked hard and beyond my hours to make sure my work is done. (Normal in my profession it’s not a 9-5 and clock off role)

However I absolutely can do XYZ at a time that works for me during the day and make the time up in the evening/weekend as my tasks are what they are and don’t fall to anyone else. If this means I can attend an appointment, hang washing, pop to the shop for milk or take an occasional long lunch but I make all the time up flexibly I can’t see the downside for my employer and there is only up side for me.

To the poster who called it golden handcuffs I 100% agree. Nothing on earth could make me change back to working out the house. My employer knows that and retention is high despite higher salaries for equivalent jobs not wfh. My salary is decent though and when I do the maths for a second car and commute I’m still winning financially, let alone work-life balance wise.

Saying all that I am glad I had 20 years working in person in a team, I don’t think it’s a great thing to do at the start of one’s career. Learning communication and how to work as part of a team and an organisation and how to line manage people. All better learned in person. But I can do them all very effectively from home now.

I'll walk over to someone to ask a question (yes, a positive of being in the office) and end up chatting to them about how their kids are or something.

I think part of the problem is that this isn't actually, from the employer's point of view, a 'waste of their time' in the way that hanging out the laundry is. People who know a bit about each other and have some personal connection do tend to work better as teams, are more likely to go out of their way for each other, etc. So while from my point of view chatting to someone in the office and chatting to my neighbour are both a 10 minute break in which I'm not working, there is some (intangible, probably small) work benefit to the former and absolutely none for the latter.

Saying all that I am glad I had 20 years working in person in a team, I don’t think it’s a great thing to do at the start of one’s career. Learning communication and how to work as part of a team and an organisation and how to line manage people. All better learned in person. But I can do them all very effectively from home now.

This could potentially be a tricky one to balance as it seems feasible that more senior people are likely to have a) a better set up to wfh (bigger house, dedicated office space etc) and b) a workload that they can deal with/manage more independently, so wfh works better for them
....but being devil's advocate, who are the more junior staff learning (by socialisation, soft skills etc) from, if they are in the workplace and the more senior people are wfh?
Although I don't work in an office/corporate type environment so maybe it works out fine with hybrid or the "intermediate" level people being around for newcomers and juniors to liase with.

Well then I'm glad I work for my employer and not yours, as mine have a big focus on wellbeing, work life balance and flexibility, which is given both ways.

My employer acknowledges that by allowing me to WFH and do things I need to do, I have a better work life balance, and therefore my overall wellbeing is improved. If my wellbeing is good, my work is good, and if I feel like I'm allowed to take a break to do some "life" stuff I'm much more likely to stay on beyond 4pm (my finish time) to finish something off or answer a query, because to me that's time I'd be commuting home from the office and I may as well be productive.

I do think people confuse "WFH" and "flexible working" though. I do both, some WFH roles aren't flexible and some flexible roles aren't WFH.

Did you quote the wrong PP..? This response makes no sense. Also feels like you're protesting too much.

Plenty of NHS workers and other public sector jobs can and do WFH.

Some full-time, others hybrid.

Including clinical staff.

And Police. Social workers. Education.

Not everyone works on wards or has to work in offices .

And many NHS trusts have seen the benefits of WFH/hybrid since covid so are advertising jobs as such.

NHS recruitment problems aren't because of workers leaving for WFH or hybrid jobs. In fact, it's making the professions more attractive and retaining workers.

Its the same principle as a hair dresser complaining about being on their feet all day!

So if all the more experienced people are now WFH who will provide the training and support that you were lucky enough for the first 20 years of your career?

The people who don’t enjoy WFH and instead choose to work in-office or hybrid. Plenty of them in this thread, plenty of hybrid and on-site roles available – not all experienced people want to WFH.

Selective quote there. Do you care to share which of the three out of money, job satisfaction and career opportunities you think nurses are being compensated with these days?

Edit - and for clarity, 12 hour dayshifts aren't considered unsocial hours.

What prevents someone from getting training and support via teams or over the 'phone or email?

I'm not understanding all the hand-wringing about the idea that someone more experienced has to be physically present just in case a less experienced worker has a question?

Why? Surely their expertise is what's needed and they don't have to be physically present to provide that expertise?

It's actually usually very helpful that they're not so the inexperienced worker actually thinks about what they're being asked to do and can often come up with the solution themselves. And if they can't, still have access to the more experienced worker to ask and be responded to.

I think often, more experienced workers can be more productive at home as they're not constantly being interrupted with pointless/anxious queries and WFH deal with more legitimate questions.

I’ve only done wfh and have had amazing training and mentors as well as crap ones.
but it’s not wfh specific, I’ve had friends on graduate jobs being pretty much ignored in an office, you get good and bad training in all sorts of jobs not just wfh.

So if all the more experienced people are now WFH who will provide the training and support that you were lucky enough for the first 20 years of your career?

@Macaroni46 in my own case that’s irrelevant as I don’t work for the same company or exact type of business, just the same general profession. My current company has everyone fully remote, I couldn’t go in if I wanted to. My old workplace has no one remote and that’s not likely to change so there are plenty of experienced staff left.

As a wider point, I do think this is a concern for future generations. Saying that, I currently train, support and line manage a large team of widely ranging ages effectively from home, but it does have its limitations. Teams calls and messages are not the same as being in the same office. I’m always looking to learn and develop my own skills in this area.

Replies like yours and a few others do rather make the OPs point though!

@SpoonyRedOtter ,

‘What prevents someone from getting training and support via teams or over the 'phone or email?
I'm not understanding all the hand-wringing about the idea that someone more experienced has to be physically present just in case a less experienced worker has a question?’

If you’re not physically present, you can’t be preemptive, just reactive. You can’t physically see someone getting stressed about a deadline, for instance, and step in and help.

‘Why? Surely their expertise is what's needed and they don't have to be physically present to provide that expertise?’

Up to a point, it is a combination of expertise and also the encouragement and emotional support only a human being can provide.

‘It's actually usually very helpful that they're not so the inexperienced worker actually thinks about what they're being asked to do and can often come up with the solution themselves. And if they can't, still have access to the more experienced worker to ask and be responded to.’

Not really. You can tell someone to have a think in an office just as easily, if you judge what is required.

‘I think often, more experienced workers can be more productive at home as they're not constantly being interrupted with pointless/anxious queries and WFH deal with more legitimate questions.’

I think this shows an attitude that doesn’t make for a good mentor. If someone is repeatedly asking ‘pointless’ questions, you need to address the problem by talking to them about it, not just physically absent yourself.

For example if they lack confidence to solve problems themselves, the mentor needs to have strategies to improve their confidence. If they are asking pointless questions because they can’t find the answers, thought needs to go into how to make the answers more accessible. And, if they genuinely can’t do the job, they need to be managed out, but hopefully that is rare if your recruitment process is solid.

Probably the easiest management job to do from home is managing someone out! But I prefer for that to be a last solution, not my go-to one.

That's an excellent post to be fair.

But I don't think applies to all jobs. Doesn't apply to mine or many others.

I'm not a good mentor because I'm not supposed to be one. So my attitude to that is irrelevant. But I know when I was working in an office I was constantly bothered by pointless questions.

Now I'm not, people are much more considered in the advice they seek from me.

I think what you're talking about is applying to specific jobs where we're talking about supervisor/manager jobs.

I was talking about more experienced workers, not supervisor/manager jobs.

More experienced workers shouldn't be expected to observe less experienced workers to check for signs of stess etc.

I think what's happening on this thread as for many others, is people objecting to WFH based on their own jobs.

And a lot of disgruntled people who wish they could WFH but can't wanting to project that on everyone else.

With a lot of envy included.

@SpoonyRedOtter ,

You are an incredibly rare poster on chat fora, in that you actually read my argument and engaged, rather than straight to attack mode.

So, thanks for that!

Right backatcha!

It was a great post and as a WFH person who is very defensive of the blanket and often offensive criticisms of it which aren't at all specific to my situation,or many others - I really gained knowledge from your post about why it may be valuable for some.

I wish you a lovely day 💕

Given all the positives many people have given about wfh, do you understand now WHY those of us who do not have the privilege of wfh are jealous??
If you enjoy the benefits, it should be quite easy to understand that others would also like to enjoy those same benefits- but will never be able to because they have chosen careers that cannot be done from home.

There's lots of things I would like. A bigger house, a nicer car, more holidays. I don't spend my time jealously ranting about people who have those things. Life isn't equal.

I'm desperate to work from home. Can anyone point me in the direction of something that could use my skillset. I'm a humanities graduate and currently managing a historic restaurant but I really want to switch roles, with commute I work 13 hours a day easy.

That is just life though. It can't be the same for everybody and neither will it be.

Careers can be changed if WFH is very important for you.