To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

Allyship.

Saying that someone intent on accessing women’s spaces can do so easily by pretending to be a cleaner, plumber, or any other occupation or trade is not a valid argument for letting male people masquerading as women into those spaces. In fact, that equivalent rather emphasises the subterfuge.

An employed male person, legitimately doing his job, is not the same as a random male pretending to be anything - a woman, a cleaner, a tradesman.

Well maybe I am a trans activist without even knowing it.

Have to say though with the queues for women's toilets, I doubt many men would choose to go in there voluntarily.

If a woman was concerned about the legitimacy of a male claiming to be a cleaner, no trolly, lanyard or cleaning materials might be clues, then I'm sure she would ask for ID rather than just accept his word for it. No one would have to fear being called a bigot or a transpobe for that.

"Where we do our business is none of your business."

That's sinister? Someone saying it's not your business where they go to the loo is sinister or threatening in any way? Come off it. I can't imagine saying anything but 'fair enough' to someone saying that it me. They're not saying 'Where we kick puppies is none of your business.' that would be pretty unpleasant.

And surely the obsession with wanting to be in women's spaces is obvious? Because they think they are women? You might disagree but there's not much you can actually do about it, because calling yourself anything you want is not illegal, just as entering a bathroom is not in and of itself illegal.

I have so much more to say, but must sleep. I wish you well @Fannycrevasse and hope we can both emerge unscatched from whatever's down the road from this judgement.

Just to say, don't bend to them. Refuse to explain yourself or apologise for your unique self. I think you sound great and I hope I find the balls (sorry!) to stand up for myself and anyone else who is being harassed for simply existing in a space in future.

My answer would be yes, I was tested by the doctor at birth with his eyes.

I suppose service stations and similar could save on payroll by encouraging people to self ID as cleaners just for the thrill of it. These are difficult times and a penny saved is a penny gained.

I fully agree - im not making the point we should allow people pretending to be something they’re not WITH THE INTENT OF HARMING WOMEN into women’s spaces, that would be mad. It’s the intent but that’s the stickler though isn’t it?

How do you know the male attendant in the loo means you harm? In the same way, how do you know the woman who you think looks like a man means you harm? Or not? How do you know the man is even a bathroom attendant? How do you know the masculine person is actually a man? Surely it’s the behaviour of these individuals we need to be concerned with. Man cleaning the loo and ignoring you? Completely fine. Masculine person washing their hands, ignoring you and leaving? Also fine. Masculine looking person making eye contact? Concerning. Male
bathroom attendant making eye contact, concerning. Again, it should be behaviour that’s the issue.

But why would you let that male in in the first place if you can help it?
We know they are the offenders and want to keep them out. That is easy to do because they do look like men in dresses. They know what sex they were assigned at birth. Cleaners doing a job usually call out when they come in and will wait if you ask them to.

Yes, and yet we’re not in this forum encouraging women to ask bathroom attendants for ID. We’re here asking women to confront other women based on their notion of what a woman looks like. Mad isn’t it?

If there was any concern I wasn’t female a test would’ve been done when I went to my doctor in my teens about heavy periods, funnily enough he didn’t feel there was any need for a test as the fact I was bleeding from my genitals on a regular monthly cycle and have visible breasts, wide hips and narrow shoulders and no balls sort of gave it away.

I’ve never heard of anyone ever donning a bathroom attendants outfit to hang out in the ladies. I suspect that there may be a crime in
there maybe fraudulent misrepresentation? Like people who dress up as council workers or meter readers to gain access to places. Even if you don’t go on to commit a crime, is just shimmying into a uniform and being somewhere that you aren’t allowed to be a criminal offence?

If a man did work as a washroom attendant and wore hs uniform on his day off and went to the ladies to hang out it’d be a sacking offence.

"We’re here asking women to confront other women based on their notion of what a woman looks like."

That might be why you are posting but no one is legally allowed to even ask for the papers to show what someone identifies as. The point is if a transwoman rapes in a female bathroom it can now be proven they were legally in the wrong space and therefore likely to have bad intentions.

If I wanted to do you harm in a bathroom and I was male, I could call out the same way a male cleaner would to put you at ease and then abuse you. The point is you are no safer from men in womens spaces than you were last week. If a man wants to abuse you in a woman’s bathroom, he will. No amount of ‘challenging’ people who you think look masculine is going to change that and actually you’re far more likely to meet someone like me and really upset them than meet an actual trans woman.

You don’t ‘know’ transwomen all mean you harm, what on earth are you on about?

I also look like a man in a dress when I wear a dress, which I don’t anymore, because I look like a man in a dress which wasn’t a problem until everyone decided that men in dresses are very threatening to women. I pinpoint that as around 2015.

How do you know the male attendant in the loo means you harm?

How do you know he doesn’t? That’s the problem.

When I taught in school, I had to have a DBS certificate. All teachers do, because some have harmed children in the past and we do our best to keep such people away from children. No teacher is offended at having to be DBS checked. We understand that it is to safeguard children.

Unfortunately, we can’t do similar for men, who are overwhelmingly more likely to harm women than are other women. So we keep them out of women’s spaces as far as possible, and if they have a legitimate reason to be there we make it clear, in order to minimise harm to women and girls.

Who is going around "challenging" people though?

That's probably because it's always been OK to ask for ID to confirm employees are legitimate. Until the ruling, women may have felt they couldn't challenge a man presenting as a woman in case he was a transwoman. Now it's clear that no man should be in there (other than staff, who can be asked for ID) and any man who is will be doing so despite the ruling, women will feel more comfortable about challenging them, and men intent on wrong doing will know they are more likely to be challenged, so it will be a deterrent.

Regularly announce you bleed from your vagina and don’t have any balls when you enter a women’s bathroom do you?

Most of us don’t enter “bathrooms” in this country. We use toilets, visit the Ladies, or, if we are old enough, spend a penny.

We do seem to get a lot of visitors on these threads.

Which is why I think the SC ruling is a good thing overall and support it, despite the fact it makes my life inherently more miserable. My hope though is that it doesn’t embolden women to challenge people they think are men, who are just washing their hands and leaving and not posing any risk at all. That’s me, I’d love to feel comfortable going to the ladies in public but I never will and I accept that. But sometimes I need to piss while I’m out and about and when that happens I genuinely make myself as invisible as I can and pray no one comes in while I’m in there. I’m ok feeling like that but I’m now really worried the instances of women feeling ok challenging me are going to increase a lot and there’s no amount of making myself invisible that’s going to help.

Oh mate, I’m from Stoke on Trent. Nice try to discredit another woman because she doesn’t fit your narrative though because of course we should all think feel and act exactly the same way and exactly how society pressures us to. YAY FEMINISM.

I think we are going to see increasingly bizarre behaviour tbh.

For nearly a decade now all that has been pushed is an ideology that states you can be anything you want and the media, education system government, employers etc are cheering you on and cancelling anyone who says “now wait a minute”.

All of a sudden someone has told them a resounding “No” it’s not surprising certain groups are kicking off and throwing tantrums

The irony of being mis-nationalised (not a thing) in a conversation about how you’re regularly
mis-gendered.. it’s almost as if making assumptions about people with absolutely no clue about who/ what they are makes you wrong more often than right.. mad.

I say sinister because, to me, it's almost cult like. At the very least it's intimidating which is precisely why biological women are against biological men having access to female-only spaces.
Surely the most logical step forward - for EVERYONE - is for there to be a third space!? Nothing is stopping anyone being the woman they want to be in a unisex toilet which everyone, whatever their gender, is welcome to use.
This leaves female-only spaces for biological women who don't wish to share with biological men. It's really very simple.

I agree with very large aspects of that ‘no’, it’s right that there’s been a recalibration. Of course some
people will be angry but I know many, many more are just really scared.