To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

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I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

Yes they are wrong- it’s all because of the ideological position of the woman in charge- and there will be a lot of legal opinion coming out challenging their nonsense . I doubt their nonsence will be sustainable but you never know these days as things just keep getting worse and worse .

• however where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use

TRAs love insisting the law provides for a case by case basis - this is literally it. Organisations can figure it for themselves how configure their facilities and remain legally compliant without shafting women 🙂

Does anyone else picture lostcat as one of those Japanese soldiers who didn't believe WW2 had ended and wouldn't come out of the battlefield?

Oh how generous.

The absolute absurdity.

I wonder if some posters are so heavily invested because they have professional investment in the issue. How many of them have qualifications or roles that they have built around this belief.

You are very naive if you think this argument is over.

It never will be on your terms because trans people aren’t just going to disappear.

And now we have the body responsible for promoting equality and human rights interpreting equalities / anti discrimination law as saying that trans women must be excluded from women’s spaces and it’s also perfectly lawful to exclude them from the men’s but it’s all ok because they can go in the “other” space, for “other” (weird) people that aren’t lawfully allowed to be around anyone because their weirdness makes the normies too uncomfortable .

It’s actually sick. Sick.

I'm not asking about biological men preying on women. I'm asking how do we tell the difference between a biological man and a biological man who identifies as not a man? What is it that separates the 2?

Anyone?

I think that the EHRC is being clear here in its interim guidance

In workplaces and services that are open to the public:

-trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women’s facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men’s facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=Orlo

It really is remarkable to see people still declare that the EHRC is interpreting the EA incorrectly in light of the SC judgement.

I personally don't want anyone to disappear. I'm very happy if it makes someone happy to wear what they like and call themselves what they like. Who cares?

But what none of us can do, is force others to believe in our religion, or to give up their own necessary rights so we can have extra privileges. None of us have the right to demand other people comply with our beliefs.

EHRC are saying what the supreme court said the law says. The judgement is online and free to read, and a lot of it is in very accessible language.

The judgement says transmen who actually pass as men can be excluded from women's single sex spaces if their presence could distress women who can't be in that space with men. Because those women will believe the transman is a man. No one called anyone weird or anything at all similar to that.

Forcing women into into intimate spaces with men was the absurdity.

Ultimately, trans rights activists and 'supporters' have done NOTHING for trans people here. Maybe start, instead of just endless moaning about women.

They've quite literally presented a solution within the guidance, which is - fully enclosed cubicles that can be used by anyone. Once again, this isn't actually that difficult. You're just not getting what you want.

That is crystal clear imo. Lots of nice clarity on who is allowed into which space and definitions of men and women.

I’m looking forward to their next instalment on sport.

Sadly for Lostcat sanity has been regained and public awareness is such that we are unlikely to lose it again. I think the focus should now be on drastically improving mental health education and speech both to stop more youngsters getting sucked into gender ideology and to treat the sad feelz of men getting used to women saying no to them.

I'll have a go, since you've no takers.

A biological man is a threat to women and transwomen.

A biological man who identifies as not a man instantly becomes a member of a persecuted minority who is marginalised and vulnerable™ and no threat to anyone and in fact is the most threatened person of all.

The way you can tell the first from the second is by what thoughts each says he's got in his head.

HTH

and it’s also perfectly lawful to exclude them from the men’s

The vast majority of men who identify as women don’t ‘pass’ at all so will not be refused entry to any men only services - if they are at all concerned they can just wear ‘men’s’ clothes and not get a second glance.

There may be a teeny tiny group that are affected by this so you don’t need to worry too much. I’m sure perfectly adequate provision will be found for them.

This. If you've ever bled from your uterus or ejaculated sperm from your penis you don't really need to have your chromosomes tested, do you?

Thank you. I'm sorry if this sounds stupid but how do you tell what thoughts a biological man has in his head? I presume we're not going around asking biological men what thoughts they have in their heads?

'And now we have the body responsible for promoting equality and human rights interpreting equalities / anti discrimination law as saying that trans women must be excluded from women’s spaces and it’s also perfectly lawful to exclude them from the men’s but it’s all ok because they can go in the “other” space, for “other” (weird) people that aren’t lawfully allowed to be around anyone because their weirdness makes the normies too uncomfortable .'

The hyperbole in this post is remarkable.

A third space that can be used by who ever wishes to use it, is dismissed as othering.

Yet..... the entire premise of why a group of male people demand to be allowed access to the female single sex spaces is belief and only belief. There is no biological marker found and none expected to be found at this stage. The only thing that these male people all had in common was philosophical belief about themselves.

But apparently, society is expected to treat this group as if their belief, that is not reflective of material reality, is materially real. And anything less than total compliance is hate and anyone not complying is to be calling or implied to be a bigot.

What other group has a philosophical belief that doesn't reflect material reality yet can overwrite the sex based protections needed for female people in the UK? Can anyone think of any?

But society is villainous if it doesn't treat this group as per the group's philosophical belief that they are female and draws the line at allowing those male people into female single sex spaces. Apparently, society is the problem if a group of male people's false beliefs about themselves are not treated as being real.

What is really shining through though, is that it was never about safety. It was only about forcing others to accept male people as female people.

Goodness, you do have a high opinion of yourself, don't you?

And some brass neck to be accusing anyone on the pro women side of the debate of being "ideological" given the nonsense we've had to put up with from Team Pronoun for the last decade or so.

It’s not disgraceful. Why is it laughable?

Well quite.

And if you did ask, any man who wanted to could just lie about what his thoughts are.

And if that man happened to be a man who wanted to harm women, and all he had to do was say he had certain thoughts, in order to get access to women when they are vulnerable, undressed, or out of public view, he probably would tell that lie, wouldn't he? I mean, why would he not?

But why should their being uncomfortable in a third designated space trump women's discomfort having men in their loos?

That is really quite shocking. It's good that we live in a society where men respect womens concerns and keep out of their private spaces.

“You are very naive if you think this argument is over.”

I don’t think it is over. I think it will never again recover though.

I think that history will remember this era as a time when society was told to believe a fallacy that ‘TWAW’ and that it was because of feelings around identity and nothing else. Despite attempts to say that it was. Many people believed that there was a special group of people but then little by little what we were being told was shown to be false.

Of course, some people have gender dysphoria. It doesn’t make them the opposite sex and the trust and confidence that people had in the groups telling them that these people had to be affirmed and receive extreme body modifications as treatment has slipped dramatically.

And when you have Sporting federations who make rulings that make people are not female people based on scientific evidence, and you have departments in UK governments that say that for some purposes male people are not female people. Including for prisons and rape crisis.

And you have courts who agree that demanded pronouns can be ignored in court, and a court declaring that for purposes under the EA transwomen are men.

All this messaging has broken the hold of the mantras around TWAW. It was never true and yet the coercion at societal level to force belief was extraordinary. And those who tried to force it look like the bullies now after the emotional manipulation to make those who disagreed look like bullies.

Is the argument over? No. But it will never recover. Who is going to trust the people repeating this mantra now?

Where the need for a single sex space has been established it is ALWAYS proportionate to exclude all men, regardless of self declared identity. Maybe read the new EHRC guidance to get you up to speed?