To be shocked by a transwoman guest on Jeremy Vine today asking a female caller what sex she is - and whether she’s “been tested?”

[AlertMaker]

I genuinely couldn’t believe what I was hearing. A woman called in to make a point and instead of responding to her argument, the guest asked her what sex she was - and even questioned whether she’d been tested to confirm it.

I found it incredibly demeaning and unsettling. AIBU to think this kind of behaviour undermines the whole idea of respectful discussion and actually silences women?

But now, under the SC judgement, “women’s spaces” (as specified) are by definition, single sex spaces for people who are biologically female. So it is entirely proportionate and reasonable to exclude biological males if these spaces are advertised as for women (which was the case for an awfully long time, by social convention and good manners, until the recent nonsense that is gender identity took hold).
If transwomen were admitted, those spaces would become mixed sex spaces, and any man could enter.

It’s true that it’s not obligatory to offer single sex spaces, except in, for example, workplace environments where legislation says they must be provided. But if it’s stipulated that these spaces are for women, then transwomen, who are men, shouldn’t be using them.

The law says that Transwomen are men, and if you let one man in you have to let them all in. It’s not that complicated to understand.

You cannot have a unisex space for women that lets transwomen in and not other men, so your friend with the pub is wrong. Transwomen are men so their inclusion in the women’s is violating the single sex space, and not including other men is discriminatory.

"Jeremy Vine has a trans woman friend and his discussion on this subject are always based in favour of trans people. He doesn’t want to cause offence to trans people but he doesn’t care about offence to women. "

I only listened to his show on the subject once and it was a few years ago. He had taken refuge in a faux-naive routine along the lines of "oh I have never heard of this whole debate at all at all, I didn't know it was a thing so I have no opinion and if I accidentally offend anyone I can be excused for not knowing, but I think we should all be kiiiind." Pretended not to grasp that there could be any conflict of rights at all. Which was a load of bollocks as working for the media he would have been well schooled in the party line and even if not, 5 minutes worth of research on google before he presented the show for which he is paid a lot of money would have told him that it was A Thing.

It will be interesting to see how this develops. Because you are correct in as much as there is no law requiring pubs to provide single sex spaces. So the landlord is acting within the law if they decide to allow both women and men to use the same toilet. However there are laws about accurate advertising and representation of services, so it may not be permitted to continue to label the spaces as for women and men if they are in fact unisex, thereby misleading the public about what is being provided. I expect there will be cases coming up and we shall see.

'Don't mention periods and babies' is really another version of treating women's biology as something unmentionable. Ultimately those things are a marker of a female - that INCLUDES infertile women otherwise how does she know she's infertile. A person that doesn't have periods is either a female who expected to and will therefore probably seek medical guidance - or a man. It's got nothing to do with suggesting that if you don't have periods you're not a woman at all. These terrible faith interpretations need to stop.

100% this. The desperation to try to minimise, hide or guilt us out of stating the fundamental fact that women are women because of biology speaks volumes.

No, the law hasn’t changed. It’s been clarified because so many people were ‘misunderstanding’ it. A single sex space must be kept single sex and sex means sex at birth.

No she will not be breaking the law. She can use whatever words or symbolic signage she would like on the toilet. She is not required to enforce the exclusion of trans women from the toilet labelled “women”. This was never required. It is not required now. The law has. Not. Changed.

Er, she is. That's literally what the ruling clarified.

It is not against the law for a trans woman to use a toilet marked “women’s” or “females”.

Why?

No it isn’t .

The ruling clarified that it is not necessarily illegal to exclude trans women from female-sex spaces if , in the given context, this can be justified as reasonable/ proportionate/ legitimate aim, etc. this is the same as the law has always been.

A single sex space must be kept single sex

no. This is not what the judgement says. it clarifies that a single sex space can be restricted by birth sex if in the context the exclusion of others can be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

but doesnt the SC judgement say that if a space in designated/marked female it must be female [by birth sex] only

No.

I think you need to read it again.

People have already explained this to you and yet you keep repeating it.

The legitimate aim is privacy and dignity for female people. Therefore trans women can’t come in.

it also needs to be proportionate- which entails a range of considerations.
It will be context specific .

The key point is that there is no mandate to exclude trans women, only the possibility if the provider chooses to do so and can justify that the various conditions can be met in the context in question.

Because you are completely wrong. The judgement absolutely does not create a mandate to exclude trans women from all women’s/ female spaces ( it just clarifies that it is not necessarily unlawful to do so) People can “explain to me” that it does all they want; they will still be incorrect.

It is not illegal for the blokes to go into the women's loos but the pub owner is no longer providing a women's loo.

How many times.
THEY ARE NOT WOMEN'S SPACES IF MEN GO IN THEM.

That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. It doesn’t make it illegal for trans women to enter a toilet marked “women’s”/ “female”.