To believe a bitey puppy in a children's group is not an emotional support animal

[Thegreengreenleavesofmay]

Someone has brought a bitey puppy to a children's group and said that because they are training it to be an emotional support animal for a SEN child, they cannot legally be asked to keep it at home.

İs this true?

This 👆

Bonkers. Doesn’t sound like training at all. I have 2 spaniels and ddog1 was a bitey cockerdile for 6 months. Ddog2 however is the most gentle puppy that would be ideal with children in that kind of setting. The owner is deluded!

As someone with an assistance dog, this is not how it works. Was the puppy just let loose with the children?

If she's claiming it's an ESA, these don't exist in the UK and can be removed from anywhere.

If she's owner training an assistance dog, it can be turned away until fully trained and it is legal for the owner of an organisation or a building to remove them.

Letting a puppy run free in a room full of children is NOT assistance dog training and is NOT a working assistance dog.

I'd be fuming. People like this are the ones who are making it much more difficult for disabled people with assistance dogs to exist. They don't give a shit that their untrained, fake assistance dogs can literally distract a medical alert dog, causing death.

I think you've summed up exactly why it has been bothering me. İt's just making people who do things properly, for their disabilities look silly.

I would email the leader and give them a chance to rectify the situation. Say that you probably aren’t the only parent at the point of leaving, and it would be a shame if the group dwindled in numbers. It can be an empathetic letter but it will clearly show your intention if things don’t change. Then it’s up to them what happens in the future.

This. I am learning to train dogs to support children with autism. Letting a puppy run wild is not training.

This is just dreadful all around. Poor child, poor children in the group and poor puppy.

they’re lying. Even fully recognised working dogs like guide dogs have no required access as puppies. They are legally allowed anywhere when working as they are seen as part of the disabled persons’ requirements. A puppy in training is not being used as the tool, so it’s not allowed anywhere dogs aren’t

A border collie cross puppy in a room full of kids? Yeah that's actually not a good idea. All puppies are biters but collies especially & although it's rarely with intent if it's not dealt with it is likely to become so. Collies (even in cross breeds) will 'nip' from a very very early age to control their surroundings. It's not a bite, it's a specific collie thing.

They're also extremely sensitive, given to reactivity, & will absolutely get overwhelmed in that environment. It's just not how to socialise them for any purpose. There's a reason why collies bite at a higher rate than almost any other breed & I say that as an owner of 3 of them lol. Single bites, not savaging.

Get the distinct impression the owner hasn't a clue & (kindly) that you don't like dogs.

Puppies are not therapy dogs. Or emotional support dogs. That’s absolute crap. It takes years of training for dogs to qualify for that sort of title.

This is some twat who got a dog for their kid and has no idea that puppies and young children don’t mix. All they are actually going to end up doing is installing bad behaviour in a puppy by overstimulating it and letting children shriek and cry around it. All around a bad idea.

I’d be livid OP.

I have an assistance dog. The law is not on their side. It is true that dogs being trained as assistance dogs are permitted in areas where dogs would not otherwise be permitted. The emphasis is on being trained. Allowing a dog of any age to interact in a "bitey" manner without correction is not training! And there is no requirement for emotional support dogs to be permitted anywhere - they do not fall under the same exception as an assistance dog. Assistance dogs may be trained for mental ill health or neurodiverse conditions, but again the emphasis is on training. The difference is very obvious.

🤣

People like this are the ones who are making it much more difficult for disabled people with assistance dogs to exist. They don't give a shit that their untrained, fake assistance dogs can literally distract a medical alert dog, causing death.

Agree entirely. There used to be a partially sighted gut came in to the local park with his "assistance dog" - he would let it off the lead, whereby the alsation would attack every other dog in the place, including my actual assistance dog. With the best will in the world, he meant that he was partially sighted and had a dog, not that he had an assistance dog that supported him.

I don’t think the law is on their side. A while ago I looked into guide dog puppy fostering and was told most places let the puppies in as socialisation is a big part of their fostering. But I had to ask work for permission to bring the puppy to work and they were entitled to say no. Obviously if it had been a trained up guide dog and a blind person they can’t say no.

No I love dogs. I used to walk a dog for someone who I had to keep on the lead in a lot of places, as she would go for people's food, and have done dog sitting for a reactive rescue dog whom I developed a great relationship with and helped to calm down. So I know what dogs can be like, and I always made sure I was on top of any issues they could cause other people.

I just have an intolerance for stupidity from owners 😂 especially as I've also been attacked by a pack of guard dogs which the stupidity of the owner allowed to escape into a pedestrian area when I was abroad.

Emotional support animals should not be a thing. It isn’t fair on the animal. I totally understand loving your pet as a companion but it should always be the human who is responsible for the animal’s wellbeing, not the other way round.

Gotcha! And yes, owners are almost always the issue & it's the poor dog that gets blamed.

Sorry I made an assumption 🙏

Good luck with this situation, I'd definitely address it if I were you, I don't think you're wrong at all.

Not necessarily.

Some people don't know the difference and some people don't know the law.

Puppies are naturally mouthy. That’s how they interact either the world. Sometimes they do little nips to encourage play, it’s how they interact with their siblings. Should it have been there, probably not, but it’s normal for puppies, they’re called land sharks for a reason.

There is no requirement for assistance dogs in training to be given access; it is discretionary and usually dependent on the dog being sufficiently trained / well behaved. I'm training my own assistance dog and have looked into this. What you describe sounds like a puppy at the socialisation stage. At this stage I only took my dog into areas where pet dogs were permitted. These pages may help:
https://dogsforautism.org.uk/assistance-dog-handler-information/#:~:text=Assistance%20dogs%20in%20training%20and,perfectly%20acceptable%20within%20the%20law.

https://www.adolescentdogs.com/post/what-is-an-assistance-dog

Emotional support animals don’t exist in the UK. They are either registered assistance dogs or pets. There is no 3rd category. Getting so fed up of people and their entitlement to think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want because it suits them. It’s about time places starting cracking down on this. Can’t take their dogs in places so all of a sudden it’s a ‘emotional support animal’ to try and get round the rules. I have to deal with this every day at work and it drives me absolutely crazy.

There is no register of assistance dogs.

Oh dear. I think this is gross stupidity/entitlement on the part of the dog owner. Also I feel the dog is the wrong breed for this situation. IME border collies are highly intelligent dogs who need a lot of stimulation and exercise - I don't believe they are suited to what the owner seems to have in mind - and they can be quite nippy even as adults. Not from malice, but playfulness.

I have a good home ed friend who fosters guide dog puppies until they are ready for their formal training. She puts a huge amount of thought into their socialisation and 'normal' training - there is no way in hell she would put a dog in this situation.

I have another adult friend who is autistic and finds their dog's support enables him to work and function better (amongst other things he is a highly talented public speaker, even though it makes him v.uncomfortable). It is a very small breed. He makes it clear when the dog is in the room it is 'working' and not to be disturbed. Said dog is usually on his lap or next to him when needed. Dog is either with him, or his carer at all times - never alone with others, and definitely never alone with children - and this is a very placid dog.

He is looking into training it (I have no idea what this involves) to be an assistance dog, so it has appropriate status and can go where he needs. He is the first person who would tell you it's a case of whether he needs the dog there in order to function better, not because he wants her there. Even with all that, he would never put the dog in this situation.

Forgot to say, my friend with the tiny dog knows all the relevant legal stuff, and has told us that his dog does not have any legal status or protection like eg guide dogs do. His knowledge is (not surprisingly) encyclopaedic on that.

He explains the dog to the room before his talks, and asks us to be respectful of her. She does not tour the room (we'd love to give her lots of fuss but understand it's not appropriate & it would overwhelm her), attendees do not touch or approach the dog, she does not approach us.

A Border Collie as an emotional support dog is funny.
A border collie in a pram is even better.
It might eventually round the children up, I suppose.