Trans women are still women

[Lostcat]

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

@Lostcat if trans women can be women. Can women become trans women? No. Because women don’t transition from manhood, they transition from girlhood.

If gender is a social construct why do trans women plastic surgery to imitate the biological characteristics of a BIOLOGICAL woman’s body?

Why does their version of womanhood include emulating the biological woman’s body? Why do they get:

• Voice change surgery to imitate a woman’s high voice
• breast implants
• Fake wind up vaginas
• hrt to mimic a woman’s hormone levels?

It’s because trans women know gender and biology are the SAME thing.

Trans women know deep down that the only way to be a woman is to be a biological one or to fake it if they can’t be one.

So no trans women are not women as your title says. They are and always will be, men.

It's a hell of a lot easier for a man to claim to be a trans woman than a trans man!

Indeed. They have literally had millions of government £££ which they've spent trying to reorder society to suit their own needs. The fact this included an intense war against women and assault on the rights of children to be safeguarded from making age inappropriate decisions before they're old enough to understand complex issues like gender identity, is unforgivable. While I appreciate that queer theory lobby groups will lobby - that's their job - our fury should be aimed at all the organisations who were meant to stand up and say no to extremism and to safeguard children from harm.

The fact that trans extremists are having such a hissy fit about a legal judgment by the highest court in the land shows how unable / unwilling they are to abide by the law and social conventions in society

Yes I'd be ok with declaring / recording sex AND gender, when appropriate

Of course men who identify as women aren't women. The proof is that, as a class, they don't act like women. For a start they retain male pattern violence.

Over 70% of the transwomen currently in prison in the UK have a conviction for sex crimes or extremely violent crime. (In contrast only 3% of women have a conviction for sex crimes).

But they also demonstrate male entitlement. How many of us had perfectly happy women's only groups and then a man who identifies as a woman joined and he made it all about him? I've seen it time and again on social media.

There was even a transwoman who joined a group for women who had experienced stillbirth and he centred himself and his 'journey'. And because we women have been conditioned from day one to be kind, some women were actually supporting this creepy guy, who was obviously wanking all over their kindness.

it's wonderful news for women everywhere that we can now say no to men who want to barge into our spaces and take over.

From the OP: "The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do."
This isn't correct. It's a question of discrimination by perception - if someone assumes a transwoman is a woman and discriminates against them because of that, then they can bring a sex discrimination case, in the same way as if someone assumes I'm a lesbian and discriminates against me as a result, I can claim sexual orientation discrimination. Doesn't mean they're women/I'm a lesbian for the purposes of the Equality Act though, beyond that specific type of protection.

You are free to interpret the ruling any way you want. But, it will only be 'interpreted' the way it was intended in the eyes of the law.

Nobody is saying trans folx don't exist or that they can't use toilets, changing rooms etc. They just can't use ours. And I would think a number of arrests of men trying to challenge that will just reinforce why it was necessary to clarify the law in the first place.

You are allowed to exclude biological men from women's sports etc but you don't have to. Fine. But , given that leeway , its hard to imagine sports , retail outlets and bars not taking the first option. Otherwise they wouldn't have a leg to stand on in any lawsuit? I heard Sumption's interview as well. He merely points out that there is no legal compulsion to exclude biological males from women's spaces. But you'd be a bit daft not to.

Can I ask a serious question please?

‘He is 6”, bearded, tattooed, lifts heavy weights and is broad and muscular. You would not look at him and think “woman’

I have read this exact same description several times over the last couple of days about people’s ‘friends’ who are TM. Do you all have the same friend?!

Yes it’s this.

In every area covered by the EA, TW are men. A service provider cannot say they offer a women only service under the EA and let TW in.

Amnesty International also said there's no such thing as a female body.

Which means we can't trust them to get anywhere on eradicating FGM, or anything else really.

Time to stop funding them and redirect our resources to more serious organisations which aren't packed full of overprivileged grifters who have been educated beyond their level of intelligence.

The Supreme Court confirms that women's sex based rights shouldn't be conditional on someone else not having obtained a magic piece of paper.

There would be a very strong basis for the transcommunity to be very angry about how ill served their needs have been by the agenda that has been pushed and pursued by organisations/people claiming to be fighting for transrights, when in actuality they have done zero to further this.

Gender is a real social construct though, that is very important in today's society from the moment of birth when different outfits and stereotypes are immediately placed upon babies.

I agree with you if our society wasn't so gendered there would probably be no trans people.

But taking gender out of the discussion, biological sex isn't actually that straightforward. It's made up of external sexual characteristics, hormone levels and the chromosomes people have (which are the blueprint to creating sexual characteristics and are not always followed). I know of a woman who has XY chromosomes and externally she developed female genitalia, has a womb but didn't develop ovaries or testes so only found out she was intersex during puberty when she didn't develop adult sexual characteristics.

Trans men or women take hormones corresponding to the gender they identify with, undergo surgeries that give them the sexual characteristics of the gender they identify with so for me, once they pass as the gender they identify with, they are that gender. Because sex and gender aren't actually that simple.

But if someone is uncomfortable with a trans woman or trans man as their doctor, nurse, etc then I think that should be respected.

Say it LOUDER for the people in the back.

It depends on the context. In a legal context, yea. In a discursive context, no. We all know what he was referring to.

OP there’s nothing wrong with being a transwoman or transman. So I don’t understand why anyone would want to say that humans can literally change sex. We all know that’s impossible biologically and it has caused a lot of pain to people.
Transmen are welcome in women’s spaces.

What’s the yawn for? Because a poster pointed out you don’t even know the name of the act you are quoting?
So you said yawn to show that you don’t care that your facts are incorrect? Ok.

Fully prepared that other will give me a hard time for this but ..surely a trans woman wants to use the same space as someone who was born a woman. That is who they believe they are a woman and having spent their life feeling like they don’t belong in their body they want to use spaces they feel they are.
I am sure trans women know they aren’t biologically female.

i can fully understand why people want women only’ spaces but to those saying the should create own spaces I can see why they haven’t .

I don’t understand why memes are being brought into such a serious issue. Males do not belong in female single sex spaces. Just like females don’t belong in male single sex spaces.

Good news, the Gender Recognition Act has not been repealed.

The ruling mandates nothing. It simply removes the ambiguity about sex and gender being used interchangeably for the purposes of the EA.

If nothing has changed then why are people so convinced trans people will now be discriminated against?

Let's get rid of all gender stereotypes and then nobody needs to transition to anything - they can just be happy being themselves.

👏👏👏

this surely has to be the answer. Your biological sex is what it is but live your best life projecting what ever you want out into the world.

No @Lostcat

Transwomen are men.

You know that. We know you know that. You know we know you know that.

Enough with the endless lying about it.

Exactly. Why hasn't that been the message all along?

If Gender is a social construct, then why on earth are we supporting people that want to chop their bits off to become something that’s constructed and therefore not real?

The trans ideology is so deeply flawed. Normally, if people wanted to become something that wasn’t real, we’d get them mental health support, not feed their delusion.

Also, reducing womanhood to gender stereotypes is so on brand for misogynist like yourself and men (trans women).