Trans women are still women

[Lostcat]

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

Can you direct me to any source which details the work Lord Sumption has done wrt to removing the primogeniture clause from the GRA so that transmen are recognised as their true selves and not disadvantaged?

This isn’t quite the gotcha you think it is, TM are women so we would accept them in our spaces. Perish the thought that women should refuse men anything eh? Even those men who are clearly lying to us by pretending to be women.

Sorry, what was your serious question?

This. If this has been about keeping women safe then it’s ill thought through. Trans men are now forced to share female spaces.

@skipdiddyskip If your friend continues to use the mens, it will be your friend who is more 'at risk' not the men. It is a very different situation to transwomen (who statistically present the same risk as other men) choosing to impose themselves on women. In the latter case it is the women who have had no choice who are more at risk.

There'll no doubt be challenges - a woman who decides she wants to be a man will have to accept that other women may not particularly want to undress alongside her in changing rooms. That's one of the consequences of her making that decision.
Such a shame that all those trans lobby groups spent all the taxpayers money they were given trying to bully women out of women only spaces and mangling the use of language to rename women as cervix havers etc . They should have been working to ensure that trans people were well catered for by society with third spaces where possible etc.
Still, FAFO and all that.

Could you reach any further?

Transmen don't present the higher risk to women as men do.

Transwomen are, and always have been men.

Desperation seeping from every pore.
It’s over. Get used to it.

Amnesty international have also made a helpful statement . Denying trans people legal gender recognition is a form of discrimination and a violation of both the law (since 2004) and universal human rights. This is the problem with the proposed reading (offered by the likes of @MissScarletInTheBallroom ) that this ruling now mandates exclusion of trans people from all gendered spaces. This is not what this judgement intended to do.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DIg0esaoenj/?igsh=OXdhd2V1Y2p2c2w2

There has always been an option to exclude trans people from single sex provision if proportionate. This remains the case.

This, 10000% this; and the focus now really should be this- women's spaces are not the solution; the focus should now be on specific & better provision for the transcommunity; which it should have been all along.

Stonewall et al need to do what they should have been doing all along - campaign for third spaces.

‘trans women can be women if they want to be’

In their head and in their private lives they can be what they like, but in biological terms and in law, they can’t, because they’re men.

Gender recognition is one thing, pretending they are the opposite sex is quite another.

Perhaps passports, NHS, etc should have two markers, a fact based sex one and an optional feelings based gender identity?

Your friend, if they genuinely pass as a man, can continue to use men's spaces. There are no safety concerns for men having a female in their space. Most men are less observant than women about physical sex, and also transmen tend to pass better as male, especially if they are tall and broad. It's unlikely that men will exclude your friend from their spaces - partly because they probably won't notice, and partly because they are less likely to care, because they won't be/feel threatened by their presence.

However, if men do decide that transmen shouldn't use their spaces and that boundary is asserted, then transmen can use women's spaces. They are female. They are likely to have a number of awkward encounters - but that's a consequence of making themselves look like the opposite sex, and therefore something they should be prepared for.

@Neemie
May I ask about your daughters school? Does it have a gender neutral uniform? I'm wondering about what the trans boys wear? I work at a mixed school and we have a partly gendered uniform ie girls can wear trousers or skirts. Although boys are allowed to wear skirts I guess but none of them have.

Does your friend still want protections against discrimination and the disadvantages your friend will have experienced due to being a biological female?

A trans woman is a trans woman, not a woman. The two have totally different meanings. Not sure why it’s so hard for people to grasp the difference, lots of denial going on.

But transmen don't pose any risk to women because they are women. Why do you think that transmen entering women's spaces would put women at risk?

Yes your friend, as bio female, will no longer be permitted to use single sex facilities provided for men. Nothing remotely confusing about that

If I see a bearded 6 foot man in ladies toilets or elsewhere, I will not for one second think "probably female"

0 / 10. Try harder

Transwomen are transwomen. Their sex is male. You cannot change your sex.

Single sex spaces must be protected. There should not be penises in single sex spaces.

I’m tired of men working their way into single sex spaces.

People are like “plenty pass so you wouldn’t even know”. People have “come out” to me as trans a few times, I’ve acted surprised out of politeness, I’m going to stop doing that now

This

I passed a large trans rights protest yesterday. One sign said, ''I'll piss where I want''. Yep, very entitled.

In matters of law facts and accuracy matter, I can’t help it if you find that difficult to understand.

It’s the same as understanding biological facts, you clearly don’t understand those either.