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AIBU?

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Trans women are still women

1000 replies

Lostcat · 19/04/2025 06:29

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Nameychangington · 19/04/2025 14:45

LonginesPrime · 19/04/2025 14:41

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

But what does ‘treated as a woman’ mean?

If there’s a necessity for a single sex-space, then it would be single-sex, and if a single-sex space isn’t necessary, it would be a mixed space.

So how does an organisation treat them as a woman? Do you mean by using their pronouns?

Yeah it's bollocks. The law never said transwomen have to be treated as women or be allowed to use women's single sex services. That's Stonewall law, not the actual law.

NorthXNorthWest · 19/04/2025 14:45

@Lostcat What should fair access look like for transwomen?

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:48

Manchester now. No woman I know would declare such a thing.
At least it's raining again so it'll wash it all away.
What a way to win the public over eh

borntobequiet · 19/04/2025 14:48

withgraceinmyheart · 19/04/2025 13:27

This is the bit I find tricky. Im part of a singing group that includes ‘anyone who identifies as a woman’ and there’s a transwoman in the group. She came out when she joined although it was not surprising and would’ve been even less so when she started singing.

I can see why she wants to socialise with women and build friendships with us. I don’t see any safety issues with her being there or any reason to
exclude her. As far as I know no one in the group has an issue with her being there although it’s possible they do and don’t want to say anything. It’s also possible women have left for that reason and not said why. But either way, the people who regularly go now are people who are prepared to accept her in the group.

As I understand it, this ruling means that we could ask her to leave if we wanted to, but that if we choose not to we have to include any other men if they want to join too. Anyone who is uncomfortable is free to set up their women only singing group and advertise it as such but she can never be part of one, even with people who
aren’t uncomfortable with her being there.

Am I right or is there something I’m missing?

I don’t think any women’s group should be forced to accept men including men who identify as women. There are definitely times when I want a single sex spaces to be protected. But there are other time when I want transwomen to be included without other men having rights to our space and now it feels like there’s no way to achieve that.

Maybe that needs to be part of the campaign for third spaces which (hopefully) trans rights groups are about to embark upon.

I don’t think this ruling affects your singing group at all, especially as you say it specifically includes those who identify as women. But I am not a lawyer.

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:49

Dang..forgot the photo

Trans women are still women
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 19/04/2025 14:51

withgraceinmyheart · 19/04/2025 14:35

Yeah I can see your point. I think we are queer friendly although I’m not queer so probably not the best person to ask.

Agree that some men have ruined it for everyone.

I suppose we could argue the aim is specially to build social cohesion between women and trans women but not sure if that’s allowed and considered proportionate.

How does this cohesion benefit women?

The Supreme Court judgment says it's lawful to have a group for people who share a protected characteristic and exclude all others if it meets the criteria in the Equality Act. Essentially, that means it has to serve some benefit to the people in that group that would not be possible if they were mixed with other people who don't share their protected characteristic.

Women and trans women don't share a protected characteristic and they don't have any common needs. What purpose would be served by a group for women and trans women which justifies excluding men?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 19/04/2025 14:52

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:49

Dang..forgot the photo

What a delightful men’s movement photo. Pissing where they want eh @Lostcat

vandelier · 19/04/2025 14:52

Amazing that it took many legal challenges all the way to the Supreme Court to establish a logical fact.

I am in awe of the tenacity of the plaintiffs. I admire them so much on behalf of all women.

Nameychangington · 19/04/2025 14:54

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 19/04/2025 14:52

What a delightful men’s movement photo. Pissing where they want eh @Lostcat

Yeah 'we piss where we want' couldn't be a more male sign to hold up if it tried, could it?

KatyaKabanova · 19/04/2025 14:54

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:49

Dang..forgot the photo

How very unpleasant. There seems to be a lot of these rallies in front of various town halls.

KatyaKabanova · 19/04/2025 14:55

Nameychangington · 19/04/2025 14:54

Yeah 'we piss where we want' couldn't be a more male sign to hold up if it tried, could it?

Quite 👏

MandySometimes · 19/04/2025 15:00

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 19/04/2025 14:25

Why wouldn't schools be covered by this? Children are of male sex or female sex. There aren't even any GRCs to muddy the waters, as kids can't have GRCs. Yes, the ruling has defined sex - it means biological sex, not gender. I don't see the issue.

I was making reference to "single sex" schools automatically assuming that they have to reject anyone based on their biological sex. While the Supreme Court ruling gives schools greater legal certainty to make decisions based on biological sex, it does not impose an automatic requirement to exclude alternative sex pupils from their school or even single-sex spaces or activities if they present as transgender. As I said before, proportionality will be key.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 19/04/2025 15:01

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:48

Manchester now. No woman I know would declare such a thing.
At least it's raining again so it'll wash it all away.
What a way to win the public over eh

They’re just proving what we’ve always known, they want to piss all over women’s rights.

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 15:02

I can see why she wants to socialise with women and build friendships with us. I don’t see any safety issues with her being there or any reason to
exclude her. As far as I know no one in the group has an issue with her being there although it’s possible they do and don’t want to say anything. It’s also possible women have left for that reason and not said why. But either way, the people who regularly go now are people who are prepared to accept her in the group.

Can you see what you just did there? You glossed over the fact that actual women may (almost certainly) have left the group and said but that's all right because now this man has got himself a group that all accept him. Why do you think a bloke would want to surround himself with understanding women who'll play along with his fantasy? Have you heard of AGP and men recruiting clueless women to validate and act the role of extras in their personal drama? Google autgynephilia, which is a fetish and is almost certainly what is motivating the man in your group.

blubberyboo · 19/04/2025 15:02

GreenFriedTomato · 19/04/2025 14:49

Dang..forgot the photo

Glad to see the mens rights movement getting pissed on in the rain..pathetic little rabble who will achieve absolutely nothing.
The law exists and it will never be changed

Naunet · 19/04/2025 15:03

MandySometimes · 19/04/2025 15:00

I was making reference to "single sex" schools automatically assuming that they have to reject anyone based on their biological sex. While the Supreme Court ruling gives schools greater legal certainty to make decisions based on biological sex, it does not impose an automatic requirement to exclude alternative sex pupils from their school or even single-sex spaces or activities if they present as transgender. As I said before, proportionality will be key.

It's fine if they want to change from a single sex school to mixed, but what they can't do is call it a girls school whilst allowing boys. Nor can they allow boys who think they're girls, but not boys who know they are boys.

NineLivesKat · 19/04/2025 15:05

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 15:02

I can see why she wants to socialise with women and build friendships with us. I don’t see any safety issues with her being there or any reason to
exclude her. As far as I know no one in the group has an issue with her being there although it’s possible they do and don’t want to say anything. It’s also possible women have left for that reason and not said why. But either way, the people who regularly go now are people who are prepared to accept her in the group.

Can you see what you just did there? You glossed over the fact that actual women may (almost certainly) have left the group and said but that's all right because now this man has got himself a group that all accept him. Why do you think a bloke would want to surround himself with understanding women who'll play along with his fantasy? Have you heard of AGP and men recruiting clueless women to validate and act the role of extras in their personal drama? Google autgynephilia, which is a fetish and is almost certainly what is motivating the man in your group.

I don’t see how it’s helpful to assume that all trans women have a fetish. Some have been quietly living their lives and the others have ruined it for them.

FOJN · 19/04/2025 15:07

Nameychangington · 19/04/2025 14:54

Yeah 'we piss where we want' couldn't be a more male sign to hold up if it tried, could it?

Literally marking their territory.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/04/2025 15:08

MandySometimes · 19/04/2025 15:00

I was making reference to "single sex" schools automatically assuming that they have to reject anyone based on their biological sex. While the Supreme Court ruling gives schools greater legal certainty to make decisions based on biological sex, it does not impose an automatic requirement to exclude alternative sex pupils from their school or even single-sex spaces or activities if they present as transgender. As I said before, proportionality will be key.

It means that a school for girls (single sex) can't admit a boy claiming to be a girl as that would make it a mixed sex school - they'd then be obliged to offer places to any boy who applied or be subject to a sex discrimination claim.
A mixed sex school allowing a boy claiming to be a girl to access the female showers, changing rooms and dormitories would be discriminating against the girls who are entitled to safe single sex spaces free from the the presence of males of any age.

Hopefully the adults pushing sex change at children below the age of consent are on the retreat so children going forward will be protected from these age inappropriate idea that a sex change will cure their bodily discomfort and mental vulnerabilities.

maartjebaabes · 19/04/2025 15:09

Why bother reading the detailed judgement when you could’ve just read the headline in the daily express?

Pluvia · 19/04/2025 15:12

The majority of TWs who've just come out (as this one has) are fetishists who're just jumping on a bandwagon and are exploiting women's groups to support their fantasies. Read up about autogynelphilia. Most of the people who call themselves TWs today are not the kind of 'live quietly and don't draw attention type'.

Helen Joyce's book Trans is a good place to start.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality/dp/0861540492

Dr Az Hakeem is a psychiatrist and used to work at the Tavistock Gender Clinic run by the NHS. He has two books, Trans and Detrans, both looking at the issue from a psychological/ psychiatric point of view. He was involved in the Cass review — not a quack.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/author/B0CMV25LLG/allbooks?ingress=0&visitId=7b86095c-4414-40a8-9981-e52bb2d62cb4

Dr Az Hakeem: books, biography, latest update

Follow Dr Az Hakeem and explore their bibliography from Amazon's Dr Az Hakeem Author Page.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/author/B0CMV25LLG/allbooks?ingress=0&visitId=7b86095c-4414-40a8-9981-e52bb2d62cb4&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-am-i-being-unreasonable-5317893-trans-women-are-still-women

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/04/2025 15:12

FOJN · 19/04/2025 15:07

Literally marking their territory.

Male transactivists have form for similar "dirty protests":

thecritic.co.uk/are-they-taking-the-piss/

FOJN · 19/04/2025 15:16

If there was ever a thread to stiffen my resolve on my "no men in women's spaces, ever" policy, it's this one. I thought at some point the TRA's would accept the legal status of women with good grace but apparently I wrong.

Well done, OP doubling down on lying and trying to bully women only convinces me TRA's are beyond reasoning with.

SameyMcNameChange · 19/04/2025 15:17

I think Boggins is getting a bit of a hard time here because it is obviously true that no one can ever be certain they have correctly discerned the sex of all the transwomen they may have encountered.

I think the reason that Boggins is getting a hard time is that it is also true that humans are VERY good at correctly discerning sex, and Boggins hasn’t acknowledged that.

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/04/2025 15:17

NineLivesKat · 19/04/2025 15:05

I don’t see how it’s helpful to assume that all trans women have a fetish. Some have been quietly living their lives and the others have ruined it for them.

Not women’s problem to fix. It has been very helpful to learn from our experiences with these men

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