To think you can’t take the moral high ground on private schools if….

[Loudcloud]

….. you moved to a particular area for good schools, and paid a premium on the property price to do so?

Surely both are using your finances to get your kid a better education?

DD isn’t private for any social advantage - in fact she was less well off than most kids in her state primary, and we aren’t interested in giving her some kind of perceived social class advantage (the majority of private schools are not going to suddenly catapult kids into the upper class 😆)

No - it’s purely for the education. DD started teaching herself Latin and Greek and is unusually academically gifted and enthusiastic about Classics, and also maths among other subjects. No state schools teach Latin or Greek in our entire county - and they aren’t subjects you can easily get extracurricular tuition in. The range of subjects they can take is much wider in her private school than in our state catchment school, where it’s very very limited, and they don’t even set the kids, never mind offer extension/advanced maths. It’s purely the opportunity to study these subjects (and others), and to the level that she’s capable of, that we are paying for. Both DH and I were academically gifted kids in average state comps and it was honestly awful — seven years of academic frustration, boredom, misery and bullying. In DD‘s school kids aren’t bullied for being clever: they can be stretched academically in ways the state sector just doesn’t offer unless you are in the few super-selective grammar school areas (which we aren’t).

Actually, I’d prefer DD to be in state: I appreciate that most state schools might not be able to afford Latin and Greek teachers, BUT what would be really great is some kind of state scheme where lots of schools could combine to offer a county-wide hub in subjects like Classical languages, or unusual modern languages, or dance, photography, extension maths - etc. etc…

Imagine being able to access the range of subjects private schools offer, but in the state sector — wouldn’t that be great for kids? —Oh, what’s that: there were pilots of schemes like that in the state sector for Classical languages and maths, but Labour’s just got rid of those as well?

All this talk of private schools giving your child a network that will lead to internships, jobs, some sort of secret handshake / leg up is absolute rubbish these days. They give plenty of advantages that you can say are unfair and contribute to gross inequality in society. But they are not a golden ticket many think they are (similarly going to Oxbridge). Those who bash private schools for this are as deluded as the people who send their children there thinking the same thing!
It’s a shame this thread has turned into a re-hash of the same well worn, tired cliches on both sides…

Precisely. You said it yourself. If a person is rich w lots of connections, the child will have those connections regardless of what school they go to (but if they go to a private school they’ll have the connections f their friends parents too and that’s why most people who can afford it go for private).
so for a disadvantaged child, that child will have no connections from going to school w other disadvantaged children. But if we abolished private schools or lowered their fees by giving them more state support, we’d allow more disadvantaged children to mix with more privileged children, benefiting the disadvantaged children. But of
course, offering no advantages to to privileged children - whose parents thus for the most part prefer to keep their offspring safely within the confounds of privilege.
what’s so sad is this cut off point come so early, already at primary school age. In many European countries there is also a disparity when it comes to college level and universities, but at the primary school level there isn’t already such a marked difference.

Please share with us the statistics showing that state educated do just as well as privately educated.

after you’ve failed to do so, you can then go on about how this is all to do w how the QUALITY of the private education is so much better and we can then explain to you how it’s only marginally so on average and then we’re back where we started.

yes it’s uncomfortable to realize that perhaps your privilege isn’t just a result of your own grit and intelligence but rather a product of class society. But I always think that the least the privileged can do is to be aware of their privilege and not try to pretend it isn’t there. That’s just adding insult to injury.

The VAT policy on education goes along with this kind of stuff below from Labour, which is why I will no longer vote for them — their whole education policy is shortsighted, anti-intellectual, anti-aspiration, anti-achievement, anti-education. I’m not a Tory either, so I’m politically homeless for believing that education ought to be something we fund properly, not something we tax. If you want your kids to be able to access a good range of traditional academic subjects, increasingly you have to send them privately and then be taxed on that, rather than kids being offered the opportunity to do languages, advanced maths and so on in state! You would think the government would be trying to retain academically talented children in the state sector, especially in maths!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3d813v7ylxo.amp
Academics from leading universities have condemned the decision to pull a scheme aimed at expanding the teaching of Latin in the state ...

Schools Weekhttps://schoolsweek.co.ukAxing Latin scheme will 'hit poorest pupils hardest'
After schools were told before Christmas the scheme would be axed in March, heads say pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds will lose access to…

Schools Weekhttps://schoolsweek.co.ukLabour scraps computing hubs, with languages scheme scaled back
Science hubs and Latin axed. It was announced in July that science hubs were to end in August amid “changes in funding”.…

SCILThttps://scilt.org.ukLabour scraps computing hubs, with languages scheme scaled back
Ministers have scrapped funding for computing hubs and are scaling back similar support in modern foreign languages..

Schools Weekhttps://schoolsweek.co.ukCuts to advanced maths scheme 'short-sighted'
The education secretary has been accused of contradicting ambitions for growth after a scheme to boost the uptake of advanced maths was cut…

Financial Timeshttps://www.ft.comDismay at plan to cut back A-level maths support programme
The UK government is to cut back a hugely successful programme designed to encourage teenagers to take up higher-level maths courses…

But we don’t go around offering connections to our children’s friends. People at Eton and harrow MAY do that but it just doesn’t happen elsewhere. I offer my own children the benefits of my connections ( or lack of!) but I have never offered my children’s friends anything not have my children ever been offered anything. My best friends from school’s parents were teachers and middle managers. One ran a little marketing agency. Of absolutely no use to me nor would I have asked them for anything. I know most of my children’s friends parents do well paid jobs but nothing exciting or useful. I barely know any of them tbh and my children only see them in passing! I have never been given a job or got anything from any school friend professionally. that there is this idea that everyone just is continually networking and it doesn’t happen.

So what are they doing to improve things? They must have some grand scheme and not just cutting things. Not suggesting the grand scheme will be any good, just asking what their plan is then. Dont follow uk education policy closely anymore after leaving the country too disheartened

I agree

just by being around children of similar middle class backgrounds children are protected from a lot of distractions and are taught middle class manners, culture and values, even ways of speaking, and staying out of trouble. It’s not just about connections. It’s about maintaining and gate keeping social class.

There is no grand scheme. Even the prospective income from the VAT — if there is any — won’t be hypothecated. Bridget Phillipson makes noises about free breakfast clubs, but there is zero vision for a great state education sector going on with Labour at the moment.

Oh…I’m surprised. Too sad.

Obviously education is more of a priority to some people than others.
Also - What is “adequate” for one child might not be adequate for others - it depends on the needs and character of the child .

And circling back to the OP’s point- buying your way into the catchment area of a top state school does exactly the same thing!

Im not sure why protecting children from distractions and ensuring they stay out of trouble is “about maintaining and gate keeping social class.”

Yes the anxiety about good schools stem for the fact that “good school” is code for access to privilege in a highly rigid class society.

Yes, it’s fundamentally class anxiety. Schools loom so large on Mn in part because it skews ‘aspirational lower-middle class’, regardless of levels of prosperity, a social group living in terror of being sucked back down to the WC.

To a degree, yes. Buying your way into a good catchment area is like the second tier of the layer cake of class society where private schools are the first tier, with the best private schools at the very top. All neatly arranged according to class. No messing with that, please!
but yes, foreign delegations can be dragged to Michaela to be shown the best of the “outstanding” public schools for the masses. This isn’t fooling anyone.

of course if you live in a class society as rigid as the UK you don’t have much choice but to play by the rules. So personally I don’t judge anyone’s choice.

Just wish people would be more honest about their privilege and their choices to pass this on to their kids. This may make more middle class people more open to helping more disadvantaged kids/families..lol…see what I did there ; ) realize most people don’t want to come to that realization because that’d put a morale imperative on them to help others less privileged plus reveal to themselves that their comparatively better lot in life is for the most part, nothing but luck. Inconvenient, that.

I’m from an immigrant family and have taught many many pupils from immigrant families in both state and independent schools. Maybe that’s why I can’t recognise or identify with your snooty descriptions about class anxiety.
Immigrant families don’t tend to have those ridiculous hang ups about class - but in my experience they DO place huge importance and value on education.
Often making huge sacrifices to send their children to the best possible school .

What nonsense!

Yep

If you don’t understand that then I don’t know where to start w you

Surely all responsible parents want their children to stay out of trouble and be protected from distractions???
That’s got nothing to do with class ..

Ah it’s settled then. The pointing out of the obvious to all class society has been called nonsense. You win.

The stuff about the lower middle classes living in fear of being sucked down to the working class, and how the U.K. is an incredibly rigid class society, is, yes, nonsense. It’s not 1930! The U.K. is actually remarkable class-mobile these days, especially compared to most countries, including most European countries; and certainly compared to most developing countries. That’s one of the reasons why people want to come here.

Sigh. Of course they do. First of all, you lifted only part of what I said and quoted that. I said that class is about manners, ways of speaking, values AND not being distracted and in trouble.
lots of disadvantaged children are distracted by less stable home environments. Their more fortunate classmates also get affected by this instability even if it’s not in their homes as the disruptive behavior which often is the result of unstable homes play out at school. No parents WANT to be be poor, dysfunctional or stressed out. Poorer people are those things to a greater extent. Keeping your child away from those kind of “distractions” as I called them is also part of gate keeping class.