to wish that a few more MN's had seen my thread today......

[Pixiepants]

Here and then taking advantage of the AIBU threads to see if I can drum up a bit more support for this subject?

I probably am, but hey.....

Regarding the "thick" Brits, I couldn't say how think you guys are as a country, but I think that the people holding this view (note: not me ... yet ) are afraid that as 7/10 FF car seats are fitted incorrectly, and RF seats are considered more difficult to fit, it would be near impossible to get the "thick" UK parents to do it correctly.

Come on British parents, show these people that you are not thick, that you are very much aware of safety issues and that you can read instruction manuals!

Write to Which Magazine and tell them that you are not thick and thus deserve to be given the chance to get safer car seats

Regarding a paper version of the petition. No, there is no paper version. However, you can collect people's names and address with postcode and then type them in to the online petition when you get home from your nursery&toddler group/NCT meeting etc. The more signatures the better, really

I'm a bit puzzled by references to 'the editor at Which? magazine'. Where has the idea that 'she' thinks parents are thick come from? The Editor of the magazine is a man, as it happens, called Neil. I used to work for Which? and I can assure you no-one there thinks parents are thick!

silverfrog : The 18 kg limitation on the isofix is for Rear Facing seats

So you can safely use your FF seat.

Pixiepants: It wasn't the 18kg seat which we've got that the MK lady was talking about. We tried a 25kg seat aswell but it didn't fit anyway. I think we talked about kids probably not fitting RF up to 25kg because I was considering having an RF seat for my 3 yr old aswell. Even though she's quite short, leg room would have been an issue after not very long (in the 25kg seat) and she also pointed out that it may not be long before she wouldn't want to go in it anyway. The leg room is much better in the isofix seat but fitting 2 in our car with the high-back booster aswell would have made it rather impractical.

Thanks, MrsHH, but I was querying Pixiepants' statement that it was the isofix pins in the car (and not the seat) that were safe t o18kg (according to her email from Britax in Sweden).

Unlikely though it may be, I do like to follow up on anything i hear which might negate the safety of my seats, and so just wondered whether I'd misunderstood.

I know the seats I have/had are correct in their weight capacities, but to read that there might be queries on the isofix anchorage points (which as I understand it are standard fittings, so shouldn't very between Sweden and the UK) has me pricking my ears up a little

Sorry I can't be more helpful Silverfrog. All I can say is that my enquiry to Britax in Sweeden was regarding the RF isofix seat, and the reply was only regarding the RF. I know what you mean , as isofix fittings don't know which seat is being attached iyswim, but think it's something you might have to check with your car manufacturer. Or perhaps FF seats have been tested upto 25kg on isofix, but not RF. Best to be sure, you're right

Hi Edam, Sorry the "she" is a misspelling. I was walking about David Evans at Which and he does not think that parents are thick in general, but we have had a long discussion about why so many car seats are fitted incorrectly and why they don't seem to be fitted incorrectly in Scandinavia and whether there is statistics to show the difference between the UK and Scandinavia etc. Also, it is an argument against RF seats that British parents would not be able to fit them correctly, so better not introduce them on the UK market (it has been put to me by Britax UK for instance). Why do manufacturers believe that parents in the UK would not be able to fit the seats? Well, that is the background to the "thick" issue.

silverfrog: Sorry about that, but I also meant the isofix anchor points, even though I wrote just isofix ;)

It is right that the isofix anchorage points only is tested and approved up till 18 kg for rear facing car seats. I believe that the limit for FF seats is 36 kg, or I know that for a fact because Britax KidFix is a high back booster seat with isofix that goes from 15 kg up till 36 kg ergo the isofix anchorage points have to be approved for FF seats up till 36 kg.

Are we talking about the same thing now? LOL

I have been in contact with a Swedish car seat expert about the anchor point and this is what he said.
Isofix is tested and approved for children weighing up to 22 kg. That is taking into account that the seat itself is allowed to weigh up to 15 kg according to the ECE standard. Most seats weigh 7?11 kg. The idea was that Isofix would include ECE Group 2 seats but ECE decided NOT to approve isofix for this weight group, so it is only for seats up to 18 kg. Research is being carried out to prove, with dynamic tests, that isofix can be used for children weighing up to 25 kg so that Group 2 seats can be included.
To check how much the anchor point can take, ECE-approved seats are tested to 8 kN, which is a force of 800 kg, without being deformed. In USA and Canada, the rules are stricter and the anchor points must be able to withstand 1100 kg, which in practice means that you can lift the whole car using the anchoring points.
Booster seats for older children can have isofix, which will help with installation etc. However, the weight issue on the anchor poins is not an issue for these seats as the force in an accident will be absorbed by the seat belt, like it is for adults. So the isofix for booster seats mainly helps keeping it in place.
So far there has never been an accident where the anchor point have failed, at least not a known and registered accident.

I hope that this helps all of you who were worried about this!

Thanks for checking it out MrsAki, but I'm a little confused.

I understand that the isofix on dd1 booster is mainly for correct/easy installation, and that her weight is anchored by the seat belt (it does sit a little uneasy with me that the seat is unapproved at these weights htough, as unapproved could mean not fully tested, surely?)

but, when you say that "Research is being carried out to prove, with dynamic tests, that isofix can be used for children weighing up to 25 kg so that Group 2 seats can be included." does this then mean that the seats would include their own harnesses, as lower weight seats do, or just that full testig will be carried out on the seats?

Dd1 is currently 18kg, and sadly now too heavy for her RF seat so she travels in one of these. THis is a group 2/3 seat, so presumably group 2 seats are already included in isofix standards?

oh, why can't we have decent and clear adice in this country on safe seats for our children to travel in?! (general frustration, not aimed at anyone on tis extremely helpful and informative thread!)

When I say "research is being..." I mean that the research is testing isofix seats that can go all the way to 25 kg to make sure that the isofix can do to 25 kg too. We are not talking about booster seats like the one in your link, but seats that look like Group 1 seats, i.e. seats where the child is strapped in with a harness, not the car's 3-point belt. When the child is strapped in with the car's seat belt, the isofix is not weight carrying in an accident, as the force is taken by the seat belt. The concern is for seats where the child is strapped in to the seat with the seat's harness. That is how I understand it. And I also read between the lines that it is more than safe but that it just has to be proven to be safe by tests.

ok, so as I thought, it's about an integral harness. Thanks again for taking hte time

(wishes they would get on with the testing - would far rather dd1 was still in a 5-point harness...)

And for anyone else wanting clear advice, sign this and to help bring it about

The only point with the 5 point harness is to make sure that the child does not slide down on the floor, sliding down under the belt. Apparently that has happened in the past. But if your child is big enough to use a booster seat, s/he is probably big enough to stay on the seat as well

my dd1 is autistic, and so far, ahs been ok in her booster and seat belt, but I am just waiting for the day that she realises that she can slide down underneath, and cause me to stop and put her back etc. She will find it hysterically funny...

I have a harness company lined up for when/if this happens, but it would be so much easier if it could still all be integral...

I do wonder about the one-sidedness of setbelt anchorage as well - as an idle aside would we all not be better of in 5-point style belts, so we are at least held equally on both shoulders i nthe event of a crash, and not flung forward twisting as we go?

I'm so envious of all your informants MrsAki

That was very interesting to read, and logical too abt. the isofix on boosters. When my child is to big for RF I want a booster seat with isofix. That way it is always installed in the car, way too many people drive around with boosters loose in the back seat because no one is sitting in it. Imagine what will come flying through the air and hit them in the back of the head if the where in an accident.

Perhaps there will be RF seats with isofix up till 25 kg in the near future then? That will be great for people who can't fit their seats correctly.

I will see what I can find out about 3 point v 5 point belts for older children and adults ...

missHH, you have a great blog with excellent information as well. And I will share all the knowledge I have

I have been really lucky to get support from some excellent people in Sweden, who have then extended my contact network to include car seat experts in Portugal, the UK and Sweden. I would not know anything if it had not been for these people backing me up and answering all my questions. Hurra for people in the know who takes the time to enlighten us commoners

I believe that when they turn their kids FF in Sweden it is recommended to use a high back booster(then with the cars seatbelt). Because a ff car seat with 5 point internal seatbelt will withhold the body and put most of the force of a crash on the head and neck of the ff child.

BUT there is a big but here, kids in Sweden RF up till they are at least 4 YRS then they are turned FF. If a child is very tiny and under 15 kg they would be in danger of sliding under the 3 point seatbelt

Sorry if I am being "thick" () - more pushed for time...

Am looking to buy an RF seat, in the UK. Could people just summarise what the main models available to me are?

I am aware of the Besafe Isikid (but isn't that £800+?), and the Recaro Polaric available in the UK at £200, but what else is there, and in summary what are the pros and cons? Were any of these covered in the recent Which? survey?

thanks in advance, and thanks to those of you in the thread who are working to highlight this very important topic.

okay. not gonna read it all. has it already been answered?? how the heck do i stop kids fighting or removing seat belt if i cant see what they're up to. i would have no idea if ds had removed seatbelt if i couldn't see the whole seat in mirror.

one of those wee daft ones wont let me see face and belt clip

The only reason I switched DD2 around, at 10 months, was that when she fell asleep, her head dropped onto her chest, and I was worried about the effect of that in a crash. At least facing forward, her head is in a neutral position. What would you suggest I do?

It is not dangerous if the head falls on the chest. It is possible to buy headrests to stop the head from falling so much.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but...

Having done some research into availability of BeSafe Isikid, I have found that UK retailers specialising in "helping" children with special needs, are marketing that seat (online) for upwards of £800 (see www.youreableshop.co.uk/product/besafe-izi-comfort-childs-car-seat-0-4-years-SU/BE200_COMFORT.html for example), when you can in fact import one from Sweden for about £300.

I suppose that like many items sold to support people with special needs, the retailers are marking up prices considerably, as they assume that the money will be paid for out of state funded grants. This is clearly immoral. Why doesn't someone in the media pick up and run with this story? It's a complete mis-use of public funds.