To think that the private school VAT case is a waste of time and money?

[Yaaaassssssqueeeeeennnnnslay]

The government’s removal of VAT breaks on school fees is being challenged in courts - friend has been pinning her hopes on this, her DC ( no SEN, perfectly bright) are in an expensive private school. I told her it wasn’t likely to make a difference, and her children will be long out of school by the time any absolute decisions are made.

However, even if the judgement goes the school’s way it’ll court to the Court of Appeal, then the European Court - which could take years - and even then IF that court rules in favour of private schools our government is under no obligation to change anything.

IF a court is even willing to intervene in a social/economic policy that was in a political manifesto - a BIG policy - and voted for.

YANBU - it’s a waste of time/money if the goal is to get the government to reverse the VAT/ business rates policy in private achools

YABU - it could overturn their policy

The courts have always been there to enable legislation to be clarified in "grey" areas. We need to have the ability to do this, however much we think we know the outcome. The outcome will also be explained so we will, more usefully , know why too.

Just like the important, but somewhat humerous, case of the different size marshmallow, VAT, and the question "well, are they eaten using fingers?"

What’s bad about national service? I come from a country where it’s mandatory to serve - I think it’s quite a good idea?

Exactly! Ffs just pay the fucking tax like the rest of us and stop whining!

What is a waste of money and time is £1 million of your tax being paid to 4 KCs to defend this bullshit policy is that good use of tax money ? and it’s not a tax break in fact parents pay twice for private education and state contribution. We have a low educated population this will not help.

It’s just how the judiciary and a democracy work. You could argue the same about any number of public spending. We need to fund the upkeep of our society and democracy in the same way we fund hospitals and social workers

What great outcomes does national service have in your country? Are they data backed or just what people think? What did you do for your national service?

No, I assume OP is talking about the case brought on behalf of a number of children on a number of bases, including special educational needs, religious beliefs and the alleged need for single-sex education.

If the reports are correct, counsel for the children with SEND shot themselves in the foot by arguing that the policy will force them into schools where their needs won't be met. If that is the case, they would qualify for EHCPs and would be exempt anyway.

wrong. The bar for EHCPs is so high and the process can be so torturtous, deliberately obstructive and time consuming that some kids age out before it can be achieved. It has been demonstrated time and time again that a typical 1000+ secondary can be massively challenging for children with AuADHD. The rigidity, lack of time and space to cater to make minor adjustments, behaviour issues, crowsed and chaotic and rushed lucnhtimes etc can be overwhelming. These kids don't need a special school or even many adjustments in the classroom that a teacher might make, its the environment. Unless we are going to cut all comps in half and double the staff, you can't recreate the private setting that suits those kinds of kids.

Phillipson is on her way to outlaw reconsideration of EHCPs which means no appeal process

The court case has already brought into the public domain government discussions on when to add VAT to school fees - they deliberately chose the most disruptive point mid school year, and that was actively discussed.

The internal treasury estimates of the number of children moving from private to state was 10%, significantly higher than the number they publicly used - and at a level where the VAT is likely to not be revenue generating.

Labour may win the case but they've already lost my vote based on their shabby treatment of children- who usually are not the people deciding what school to go to.

Labour clearly think vaping is better for you than private school - they gave the vaping industry 2 years to 'adapt' to tax changes! They should be banning vaping altogether (outwith smoking cessation), not protecting the industry.

‘The court case has already brought into the public domain government discussions on when to add VAT to school fees ’

And? What difference does that make to anything? I don’t think anyone who agrees with the removal of tax/ business rate breaks cares when it happened. Sooner the better.

Wrong, wrong, wrong!!!!

Goodness this is frustrating! The exemption for SEN children is only available if you have an EHCP AND have managed to get the local authority to pay your private school fees for you. It’s that AND which means this exemption is rarely used. My child was told by the state school that they couldn’t safeguard them from vicious bullies who bullied them due to their ASD, and if it was at all an option to get my child into one of the local private schools. They were right. My child is now thriving. BUT do you think the local authority would admit this and fund the fees? Of course not! They just wanted my child to try another state school (with the same issues), and if that didn’t work, yet another state school.

No local authority is going to fund mainstream private school - I don’t think there are any such placements in Scotland whatsoever - when they can just palm you off with a cheaper alternative. The exemption for SEN kids it totally meaningless.

Excuse me while I die laughing!

Completely agree. Such ignorance on here. Whether you agree with the VAT or not, bringing it in mid-school-year and at such short notice is downright cruel and unprofessional - it hadn’t even passed as law yet, HMRC was not ready, nothing was ready. Utterly stupid. I would never in a million years vote Tory but Labour have lost my vote.

I think what has been valuable is the light the case has shone on the decision making and interaction between civil servants and Ministers in DfE and Treasury. It's clear that there was a dishonesty at the heart of how the policy was implemented, and that Ministers disregarded Civil Service analysis and advice, where it didn't fit their political narrative. This tells me that it was absolutely driven by ideology and spite and that Labour Ministers were at best indifferent to the harm being done to individual children and families. The Govt press lines of using money raised to invest in the 94% of children educated in state schools is also exposed as dishonest since the VAT is no longer hypothecated for schools.

You might be right that the families taking this case gain no financial benefit from it. But it is always good to know the ethics of an incoming administration. The combination of taxing education combined with the awful implementation plan has lost Labour my vote, possibly for ever. If they think and act this way on this issue how can I trust them on others?

But the issue with that cruelty is that parents had already paid the schools for the spring term.
The schools didn’t have to do a VAT return and payment for this until 31/03. yet within months, multiple schools were going bankrupt and closing overnight with no notice. Why? Aren’t you in the slightest bit curious?

I used to work in insolvency in the eduction sector (but colleges and unis rather than private schools) the only reasonable explanation for this is that these schools had been poorly run for years. That’s not acceptable at all. It’s a shock to the market but clearly they weren’t sustainable

Who is not paying tax and who is in your scenario, because what you said doesn’t make sense to me?

That may well be the case but doesn’t excuse or mitigate the fact of the ridiculous, punitive, ill-judged timing. No VAT on gambling? Imagine how much more money would be made from it (it’s already clear this policy will make no money and even cost the taxpayer), and they’d probably get much more notice too.

But you know why tax on gambling was removed right? It’s a totally different scenario.

i think it is relevant because if market restructuring was required you’ve forced the hands of what seems like many schools who were operating whilst insolvent (which is illegal) and arguably, immorally taking fees from parents.

take universities, they have had similar, slower market disruption by freezing tuition fees. The market will shrink, as it should. Admittedly, it’s taken longer, but presumably the government were aware so many of these schools were unsustainable

edited to say tax not VAT, my error

I don’t think it’s necessarily that the schools are badly run, it’s just a private school is an all or nothing business, very different from your average service company etc. You can’t just get rid of a department or two in order to balance the books. You can’t just downsize. At the whiff of news the school is teetering on the brink of not coping there is an immediate exodus to the next best option and the whole thing collapses like a house of cards.

The school often also feel committed to the school community. It’s pretty horrendous to close half way through some of your pupils A levels or GCSE’s so they cling on as long as possible to prevent the upheaval. I’m not surprised at the number of schools suddenly no longer able to make it work. And Labour suggested that ‘greedy’ private schools should cut their fees to allow parents to better absorb the VAT - shows how out of touch and grievance ridden they are. I can’t quite believe I voted for them at the last election.

its not a tax break or loophole.

Running a business well includes having a certain number of days cash available to meet expenses. That’s a basic regulatory requirement in education and most regulated sectors. The private schools who have closed clearly did not have this, and their business model was too poor to borrow it.

and of course you can close a subject or an offering / facility. But you need time for that to take effect and clearly, the schools that have already closed weren’t capable of responding in this way.

This still does not excuse or justify the timing. Businesses and consumers need time to prepare for tax changes, whether they’re mismanaged or not, and this should be written into law. It’s clearly vindictive, with complete ignorance of the diversity of people who use independent schools and the reasons why. Ultimately it’s going to have a detrimental effect on state schools as well.

Obviously id individuals aren’t affected they won’t care..ie the sooner the better.

Personally I think the welfare changes shouldn’t take 18 months to introduce but at least for those it does there’s some warning.

The issue of when is relevant to the case

@SummerDaysOnTheWay

Do you pay tax on your kids education.
education. 🤣🤣🤣
I don’t think so as no country taxes education.