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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A casual friend has just told me she's standing as a Reform candidate

417 replies

Mumblechum0 · 05/04/2025 15:25

And I have no clue how to respond.

I've always liked her, we're not close, ie don't do anything just the two of us, but are often in the same group at parties, book group, joint birthday bashes etc.

She's very posh, professional job, husband's a head fund manager (he walks round in a tweed cap and goes shooting on his family estate etc etc...just setting the scene, she's well educated etc.)

Anyway, she messaged me yesterday to say that she wanted me to know in advance that she's standing as a Reform candidate in our local elections; she didn't ask for my support, but didn't want me to just see her face on a leaflet through the door.

I'm married to a black man, have a mixed race son.

I haven't responded yet, as I don't know whether it's best to just ignore, or to say thanks for letting me know, or actually to say I'm quite horrified (which is my actual reaction).

Any ideas?

OP posts:
Guinessandafire · 06/04/2025 17:15

Licky · 06/04/2025 15:36

As usual, there's a great deal of dishonesty on both sides of the debate.

To begin with, it's important to acknowledge that while no one in the Reform Party openly admits to being racist, racism is a persistent issue across society as a whole. Given this reality, it's statistically and logically reasonable to assume that some individuals within the Reform Party harbor racist views. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous. Moreover, it’s not implausible that, for a subset of members or supporters, racial animus plays a stronger role in their political stance than genuine policy concerns. Denying this possibility only undermines efforts at honest discourse.

On the other hand, there is a recurring problem where Islam is unfairly equated with being "brown" or ethnically non-white. This is both factually incorrect and socially damaging. Islam is a religion, not a race. As PPs have pointed out, there are Albanian Muslims, Syrian Muslims, Iraqi Muslims, Pakistani Muslims—spanning a wide spectrum of ethnic backgrounds, languages, and skin tones. Reducing Islam to a racial identity erases this diversity and distorts the conversation.

Additionally, criticizing Islam as a belief system should not be immediately labeled as bigotry. Just as it is valid to critique or reject the tenets of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, or any other religion, so too is it legitimate to question or challenge Islamic doctrines or practices. Freedom of thought and belief must also include the freedom to critique ideas, including religious ones.

Another double standard that deserves attention concerns cultural preservation. When minority groups express pride in their heritage and advocate for preserving their cultural traditions, this is generally celebrated as a healthy expression of identity. However, when white individuals express concern about cultural change—particularly in the context of large-scale immigration or rapid demographic shifts—they are often dismissed as backward, xenophobic, or racist. This inconsistency is problematic. There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to preserve one's culture, traditions, and sense of community—regardless of racial background. Cultural continuity and identity matter to many people, and concerns about their erosion shouldn't automatically be pathologized just because they come from members of a majority group.

In short, honest debate requires us to recognize complexity, reject lazy generalizations, and apply principles evenly across the board. Otherwise, we're just talking past one another and entrenching division.

Another common dishonesty in these discussions is the frequent use of the “not all Muslims are…” argument. This line of reasoning typically points out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, kind, and law-abiding—which is undoubtedly true. However, this argument often serves to shut down legitimate criticism or inquiry. And it’s particularly hypocritical when you compare it to how similar defenses are treated in other contexts.

For example, on Mumsnet and across social media, when someone points out that most men are not predators or rapists, that person is quickly dismissed with the familiar “Oh, it’s the ‘not all menz’ argument again,” often followed by accusations of deflection or ignoring women’s lived experiences. In those cases, generalizations about men are not only tolerated but often encouraged as part of a broader conversation about systemic issues.

The same goes for terms like “toxic masculinity.” Most people would agree that the majority of masculine men are not abusive or misogynistic, and yet the concept of toxic masculinity is widely accepted in public discourse. It is used to highlight recurring patterns of harmful behavior that emerge within a particular cultural or gender context. No one insists we first preface every discussion with “not all masculine men” before addressing those problems.

So, why is Islam treated differently? Why is it considered offensive or even bigoted to point out patterns of extremism, intolerance, or violence that have emerged repeatedly in association with certain interpretations of Islam? The argument isn’t that all Muslims are dangerous—just as it’s not argued that all men are abusers or all white people are racists. The issue is whether a particular ideology or culture has tendencies or doctrines that routinely give rise to harmful outcomes. And in the case of Islam—especially in its more conservative or fundamentalist expressions—it is intellectually dishonest to pretend this isn’t the case.

The conversation should not be about assigning collective guilt to individuals who are innocent. It should be about recognizing patterns, identifying where cultural or ideological influences are leading to consistent harm, and having the courage to confront those influences honestly. Blanket denial in the name of tolerance doesn’t promote social harmony—it undermines truth and accountability.

Try not using Chat GPT next time, it might make your posts have a modicum of credibility.

Licky · 06/04/2025 17:19

Guinessandafire · 06/04/2025 17:15

Try not using Chat GPT next time, it might make your posts have a modicum of credibility.

I sometimes use chatgpt for grammar and coherence. The arguments were entirely my own.

I used talk-to-text to give the following, rambling, instruction:
Rewrite the following coherently colon as usual there's a lot of dishonesty on both sides. For starters no one in the reform party ever admits to being racist, but as the race it's everywhere it makes sense they are racists in the reform party too. And it's not that far fetched to believe that some people in the reform party a motivated by racism rather than a real concerns.
On the other side, Islam is completed unfairly with brown people. Islam is a religion there are as previous posters of pointed out Albanian Muslims Syrian Muslims Iraqi Muslims Pakistani Muslims these are all different ethnicities races skin colors. Also there's nothing wrong with being anti-islam as Islam is a belief system and as such it is legitimate to think there's something wrong with that belief system it is just as legitimate to think there's something wrong with any belief system ie Christianity common Judaism, Buddhism, seekism and so on. Another issue Pete white people don't get the same treatment as others. While it is legitimate and even promoted for minorities to to be proud of their culture and want to retain it, when white people seek to retain their culture and are bothered by a huge influx of people that really a huge demographic change that to really changes the culture, they are seen as small-minded racists. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting your culture to remain, even if you are white.
Continue. Another dishonesty is the not all Muslims are argument i.e pointing out that the majority of Muslims are Peaceful loving etc. The problem with this is that here on Mum's net, when anyone points out that the majority of men on not drapers etc there are tact with the oh it's the not all men's argument again. Likewise even though we can recognize that not all masculine people in fact the majority of masculine people aren't racists and the majority of masculine people are not domestic abusers, they're still no issue with people in the press or anywhere decrying toxic masculinity. The issue isn't whether everyone that belongs to the group is a danger of course that is not so. The question is whether this belief or culture regularly produces people that are dangerous to the rest of society kung fulstop and to deny that Islam does this consistently is just disingenuous.

Let me know if this is better.

BitOutOfPractice · 06/04/2025 17:21

I agree. @Maitri108 if you need ai to write your posts, even yiu must realise you’re on a hiding to nothing.

And don't deny it. It’s so obvious it’s farcical.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 17:22

BitOutOfPractice · 06/04/2025 17:21

I agree. @Maitri108 if you need ai to write your posts, even yiu must realise you’re on a hiding to nothing.

And don't deny it. It’s so obvious it’s farcical.

ETA I thought you were telling me I was using AI.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 17:25

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 15:55

Who's talking about there being a race war and weapons?

People on social media.

ScribblingPixie · 06/04/2025 17:36

I'd just say thanks for letting me know, this will certainly make local elections more interesting. Then wait and see what her views are without prejudging.

User46576 · 06/04/2025 17:48

Goldenbear · 06/04/2025 14:14

To oppose the Nazis that should read, not that grammatical mess above!

Donald trump and/or Reform are not the same as the Nazis. Everyone needs to stop calling everyone they don’t like Nazis. It doesn’t add anything to the debate.

User46576 · 06/04/2025 17:52

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 14:36

Terrorists and extremists should be criticised obviously. For example, everyone is talking about Adolescence and incels which are classed as extremists.

We have a problem with far right extremists, look at the riots last year and people trying to set light to an occupied building.

However, the problem is when you tar everyone with the same brush and forget the human. The majority of Muslims in this country are getting on with their lives. They work, pray, care for their families and don't have extremist views. They're not an infestation.

The point is that criticism of Islam and Islamist practices and groups is not racist. It’s entirely acceptable in a free society

LakieLady · 06/04/2025 17:54

It would be the end of the friendship for me, I'm afraid. If she's not racist, the only explanation for her being a member of a racist political party is stupidity.

Life's too short to waste time on stupid people.

BitOutOfPractice · 06/04/2025 17:56

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 17:22

ETA I thought you were telling me I was using AI.

Edited

I apologise @Maitri108 I @-ed the wrong person. It was @Licky i said was using AI. I see they’ve explained why (allegedly) but when it’s so bloody obvious it’s very detrimental to an argument.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 17:59

User46576 · 06/04/2025 17:52

The point is that criticism of Islam and Islamist practices and groups is not racist. It’s entirely acceptable in a free society

Criticism of extremism or terrorism is not racist.

Ecocool · 06/04/2025 18:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ecocool · 06/04/2025 18:09

LakieLady · 06/04/2025 17:54

It would be the end of the friendship for me, I'm afraid. If she's not racist, the only explanation for her being a member of a racist political party is stupidity.

Life's too short to waste time on stupid people.

How on earth is it a racist party? You've been brainwashed.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/04/2025 18:13

Ecocool · 06/04/2025 18:09

How on earth is it a racist party? You've been brainwashed.

If it quacks like a duck...

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 18:16

PandoraSox · 06/04/2025 16:26

Oh and here's Farage encouraging people to vote for racist candidates who have been dropped by Reform, because the size of Reform's share of the vote is more important than having any sort of principles.

Repugnant.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjo

If you read that article Farage said he wanted nothing to do with them. It was a party spokesman who said to still vote for them not Farage.

Although this was last year so it's old news.

ToWhitToWhoo · 06/04/2025 18:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

So you apparently think that the best way to attack a politician you dislike is to give him a Muslim middle name? When he is known to be an atheist, married to a Jew, with no known Muslim background- so you seem to think that calling someone Mohammed is itself an insult? Wow, You're not doing your preferred party any favours.

And I'm not a Starmer fan, but I greatly prefer him to Farage!

Yorkshirelass04 · 06/04/2025 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Awful.

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 18:26

That was before the General Election last year, I thought you meant in the last few days. That was dealt with at the time with Farage condemning him for those comments.

LizaRadleywasonthespectrum · 06/04/2025 18:26

Racism exists in every party. Reform is no worse than the others but it’s easy to fall for the rubbish spouted. I’m not white and to be honest it gets on my nerves when white people call racism when they haven’t a clue. Bloody white saviours.

Teanbiscuits33 · 06/04/2025 18:30

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 18:26

That was before the General Election last year, I thought you meant in the last few days. That was dealt with at the time with Farage condemning him for those comments.

Farage didn’t condemn anything as far as I was aware, instead he accused journalists of planting him to make Reform look bad on tv! True to form.

dapsnotplimsolls · 06/04/2025 18:36

Reform isn't a racist party. It just contains more racists than your average political party.

JasmineAllen · 06/04/2025 18:47

Trees6 · 05/04/2025 15:39

I’m not a Reform voter, I’m left of centre, but her politics are up to her 🤷‍♀️

I wouldn’t say anything to her tbh.

I don’t think that all reform candidates and voters are racist either. That’s a simplistic view.

I agree. Unless she actively tries to get you involved when you make it clear you're not interested YABU to vet your friends political leanings.

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 18:49

Teanbiscuits33 · 06/04/2025 18:30

Farage didn’t condemn anything as far as I was aware, instead he accused journalists of planting him to make Reform look bad on tv! True to form.

Farage said at the time that the sentiments expressed were appalling and that the candidates involved, who were volunteering with his local campaign, would no longer be welcome in the party. He said some of the language used was reprehensible.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 18:52

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 18:26

That was before the General Election last year, I thought you meant in the last few days. That was dealt with at the time with Farage condemning him for those comments.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying that because it happened a while ago it's not important? I'm pointing out that these are the type of people who support Reform.

Teanbiscuits33 · 06/04/2025 18:52

JasmineAllen · 06/04/2025 18:47

I agree. Unless she actively tries to get you involved when you make it clear you're not interested YABU to vet your friends political leanings.

Somebody’s political leanings say a lot about their wider morals, values and general world view, so I’d say the political leanings of people I choose to be friends with is actually important. I personally don’t understand anyone who tries to make out it doesn’t matter? I certainly would want to know if any of my friends supported a cause I found highly objectionable so I could keep away from them.