Would you advise your DD to go into the trades?

[ItsFineReally]

1. University fees are now significant
2. We're always in need of plumbers, plasterers, electricians etc
3. Women often find it hard to find good flexible work while their children are young

Considering the above, why aren't there more women in the trades, and have you raised it as an option with your daughters when discussing future job roles?

If it was what she wanted to do. I think having your own business is definitely the way to go. I think there could be a good market especially with older people.

however there are so many other routes into careers that don’t need university

Not a trade as such, but my daughter is a Postie…she loves it! She successfully completed an apprenticeship and now earns a decent salary. Although there are a few women (and interestingly often in senior positions) it is extremely male dominated. She has found the men very supportive.

Dd is 18 months into a 3 yr mechanics apprenticeship.
The first company she worked for were lax, didn't keep on top of her training, preferred her to sweep the floor and make the coffee. Workshop manager didn't like apprentices- he saw red with a female apprentice.
She took her issues higher a few times but it didn't really stop him. While she worked there however 13 staff left so it wasn't just an apprentice issue.

The company she works for now are brilliant. The odd friendly jibe, but she gives it back. Workshop manager is on the ball with her training.
As a previous poster said mens/ communal toilets are gross. She works with another female mechanic, they are OK to use the beautifully clean showroom toilets if they want. At the minute the floors being resurfaced, after three trips to the loo yesterday having to walk round the outside of the building to use the nice loo- dd had had enough. She went to have a word with her boss- she said he looked a bit panicked- and explained she was happy to use the gross loo but for God's sake she needed a sanitary bin in there. Boss breathed a sigh of relief and it's arriving next week.
Work clothes are not designed for females. They do not fit. Dd has done serious research to find women's trousers. Work very happy to reimburse.

I think you need to be a little bit bolshy to be a woman in a perceived male trade, you need to completely know your stuff and sometimes be one step ahead.

Dd is as happy as a pig in mud, and she's difficult to please!

Because it isn't flexible. You base your opinion on the fact that traders tell you they can be there on Tuesday at 10am and think they spend their mornings in PJs or drop their kids off to school. In the actual fact, my partner's morning usually looks like this: drive to trade store for 7am to pick up supplies for project 1. Drove to project 2 to open the doors for a sub-contractor to install windows, brief them and leave them to it. Drive to project 3 and drop labourers off, make sure they know what to do. Then drive to you for 10am to do whatever you need doing. Nip out at lunch to drive to project 2 to check on window installation and pay sub contractors. Check on the labourers, possibly run to get more supplies. Go back to yours to finish the job. Drive to meet a new client to discuss a project. Go pick up labourers. Finally get home at 7pm and spend the evening doing quotes (for free). Cross the fingers and hope that your partner is not too mad at you for being an absent patent/husband and made you some dinner.

I would (and did) encourage DD to do an apprenticeship rather than go to university.
Two years after her friends have finished their degrees she’s earning the same, or more than them, with no loan to pay back, a good reputation established at work and her feet a couple of rungs up the ladder.

I've recently done a job at a medium sized boat construction yard, and it had the highest proportion of women workers I've seen so far on any site. The code to the womens' toilet was a closely guarded secret, passed verbally from woman to woman 😆

This is true but the reverse is what might make a female plumber/electrician be more in demand - a woman living alone or with children may be more likely to hire a woman than have an unknown man in the house.

You’re right that going into strangers’ houses can be a risk but that doesn’t stop other professions having women - eg we had a few estate agents out to value our house, more were women than men.

A self employed IFA would also be very flexible.

I’d definitely recommend the degree apprenticeship route. My son started his 6 years ago in a specialist engineering field. He now has a degree, has earned a very decent salary throughout the time, has no student debt and had a guaranteed job at the end of it. Whilst he didn’t experience “student life” like a lot of his friends, he considers he’s in a much better position than his peers, some of whom have their degree, but with huge debt and no secured job.

My DD has got to degree level wages via care work and getting into a social care company that promotes/trains from within and obviously being excellent at her job. My two son-in-laws have done the same via factory work and one via manufacturing. Weatherspoons trains from within. Macdonalds used to. The only thing about some trades is that it doesn't fit in with a short materity leave. As said, it isn't as flexible as thought. I know a lot of ex tradesmen and their bodies are knackered by the early 50's. As with anyone, it should always be considered. I'd research world wide jobs.

Horticulture.

However typically the women working in it don’t charge as much as the men. If you can get into garden design there’s a very good living to be made.

I'm not in trades but worked in a very physically demanding predominantly mans industry.

If she has an interest then yes encourage her to seek further info. However if she's not got a rhino hide skin, capable of defending herself without getting upset or physically strong, try and manage her expectations.

I quickly learned to never ask for help even when they help other younger male colleagues. I already knew what men said about women in male company, it's not always easy to hear on a daily basis. I had endless comments about my physicality, being a woman, and because I'm strong for a woman but often was weaker than my peers I had to do things differently and cope with the comments on that, oh and goodness forbid if you mention you do or don't have a partner, you learn to keep your private life private. It's like working in a goldfish bowl. I've faced several serious SA, numerous other attempts at hazing and groping. Your friends often feel they no longer have anything in common with you because your life changes dramatically.

The work isn't all that flexible because while they seem to turn up whenever, they often have to deal with supplies, paperwork, finding new business etc. the bit they do in the home isn't always the bulk of the work they do. I have family in trades they never stop. There is also a lot of training and CPD required too.

Lastly physical work takes a hard toll on the body, your career as a woman is often shorter than a man. It's something not often mentioned when you do manual work.

If I had a DD I might well, depending on her aptitudes. Working in the trades can be satisfying- there's tangible evidence of your work- flexible in the sense it's a job you can travel with, and well paid.

I work in a....kind of trade, although it's regarded as pretty niche. I certainly get more men on the sites I work on staring at my work admiringly than they do my arse 😆 (but I am in my 50s, don't know how much grief a younger woman would get). It's actually a very female dominated trade, which is interesting- I put it down to the fact that it very nearly died out in the 1980s and then got resurrected by hipsters, so the culture of male gatekeeping had died out in this trade. It certainly shows that it's the kind of job that women want to do when they're given a chance to!

I recently spent a month or so working on a busy site with dozens of construction workers coming and going, and in that whole time I saw two other tradeswomen- a joiner and a gas engineer. I think the reasons why are complex, and down to a lot of subtle and not- so- subtle gatekeeping from the men. Basically, they don't want the competition for the jobs. It's not really overt when you're on site (again though, I'm middle aged- whether they'd attempt to mess with a younger woman I don't know) - builders that I've seen don't spend all their time being gross or sexist or laddish, 95% of their conversation is bitching about their colleagues or trying to work out who's taken their drill without asking 😆

My assumption is that small/ medium sized firms aren't taking women on because they don't want the competition, that girls are being vibed out of even going into the trades by the general attitude of gatekeeping, and that the women that do go into the trades aren't often seen on sites because they're so much in demand from female householders.

One thing though- I do think that the strength thing is a red herring. Female carers are often expected to lift large adults on their own, and this is seen as normal. Plumbing, electrics, painting and decorating, tiling and many other trades don't require brute strength, and even as a not- particularly- fit middle aged woman I can wrangle whole sheets of plywood just fine.

It's weird isn't it that I've never seen anyone worry about female cleaners' safety when going into strangers' houses on their own....🤔

I went from construction to horticulture and was often asked to do people's gardens for free after men had given them quotes, one person even asked in an external funding meeting if I could do it for someone else, as the person's sons were too busy to do it. These were people I'd never ever met.

It was then I vowed to never volunteer again!

There are good work trousers for women, my company ordered Helly Hanson ones for me. We have a work clothes magazine on the coffee table and there are so many female options for all kinds of work clothes.

Problem with my workplace is no female loos as the ones designated female have the washing machine in and the washing up sink but there's a self-contained loo off the changing room that I use. Don't have a female changing room yet (hopefully soon as we are taking more of the building into use) though either but I change at home and don't care anymore about walking in on the bloke's changing (I'm hoping they'll care though so they learn to shut the door )

I had that from a sideline I had in schooling horses with issues. It was something I'd built up a small local reputation for so it was often word of mouth work. They often assumed I was getting free horse riding so why would they pay. Never once considering the risk or skill it took. I only ever did that for free once as it was my boss. I got a bonus for it as an appreciation for the work involved.

I do hope we see more degree apprenticeships or other paths to future careers rather than university being the be all and end all.

Loving hearing about the successful women becoming mechanics and engineers and P&Ds too. Or working in the construction industry. You can't be what you can't see.

Trades and degree apprenticeships are usually 2 different things. Not everyone is suitable for a degree but they can earn well in the trades anyway after a traditional apprenticeship. I would certainly encourage my daughter to do a degree apprenticeship but I would have reservations about her being a plumber for example. She is very petite. I doubt she could lift a boiler and carry it up several flights of stairs like my plumber does.

A lot of trades are very hard on the body. A lot of the men struggle as they get older with wear and tear on the knees etc and female joints tend to be smaller. Some of the work does involve a lot of lifting. Pregnancy can affect your back and joints, sometimes for the rest of your life, so if you ever have a baby you might find you struggle in the trades afterwards and you might not be able to work while pregnant - which is a problem if you're self employed.

Some women are very strong and tough, but I wouldn't say it was a job suitable for all women. My job involves seeing people with injuries from a trades so I'm under no illusions about how hard they can be.

Yes, apologies for any confusion. A few PPs talked about degree apprenticeships their own children are completing and my point was around those as well as traditional apprenticeships being seen as good routes. Outside of the standard "university is the only viable option" approach.

I would encourage any child to go into a career that interests them. A lot of the time, people seem to be put off trades because it's seen as being very male-dominated and... well, a more "working class" job. This is despite the fact that it's more useful than pen pushing all day.

I work in a very male-dominated industry. The fact that I'm female shocks a lot of people. I remember on my first day that a young woman said, "A woman, working on the XXX? When was the last time that happened?" (I was the first in 100 years).

You do get some misogynistic idiots like my manager, but as long as you can do your job, you get away with being female.

I know of some who advertise themselves as female plasterer/electrician/gas engineer/painter etc. They get a lot of business from women who'd feel more comfortable with a woman in their home than a man. There are even taxi companies who do the same and have women drivers.

It can be difficult for females in male dominated fields, and there can be lots of sexual jokes, taking the micky out of each other etc but sometimes it's down to bad/good management. Some will let things slide that others wouldn't. That's down to luck though, and she'll not know which companies are better to work for til she works for them. That's if she doesn't go down the self employed route of course, both have their pros and cons with things like pay or maternity leave.

We have local tradeswoman in our town (she’s pretty handy at most DIY type jobs) and she is so busy that you have to book her months/weeks in advance. She turns down work all the time. I have asked her to do some work specifically because she’s a woman and I want to support women in the trades. She’s self-employed.

I looked into this some years back. Maybe things have changed in recent years but when I considered this you had to find your own placement for the practical experience and it seems more trouble than it’s worth for many plumbers/electricians to take on an apprentice.

This is outside of the limited numbers on government apprenticeship schemes but I believe it’s the reason for the longstanding shortage of skilled tradesmen.

Yes another point is that trade apprenticeships are quite difficult to get. There aren't enough of them and outside of the big firms they tend to be kept within friends and family circles.

The apprentice traditionally is the "gofer" in a small firm. The one who does all the fetching and carrying from the van, does a lot of the heavy lifting so the qualified person (who may be a single self employed person) can save his older back and joints a bit. In reality no small firm is going to take on a girl to do this. Women will have significant trouble getting an apprenticeship in a small firm unless she is a relative of the owner.