To think that the new PIP benefit proposal could lead to the same issues as Universal credit's new LCW policy...?

[Tiredofthegovtsuselessdecisions]

...which is to push some people to claim they are sicker than they really are just to keep their money?

I believe the government proposal is going to add to many people either exaggerating their symptoms to get 4 points in atleast one description for daily living or hope their illness gets worse enough to achieve the 4 points. Either way, it's unfair on ill and disabled people to have to think this way. They're ill enough as it is and deserve the support even if they get all 2 points in each.

It could increase the so-called fraud that people keep going on about because everyone wants to keep their money to be able to survive and people will do anything it takes to do this, including those who outrightly lie and scam the system.

This is exactly what happened when the govt stopped payments for universal credit LCW group where many were quite happy to stay in. Now everyone scrambles to prove that they are too ill to do any sort of work so they can be put in the LCWRA group and get the money, yet still be allowed to work! How does that make any sense? Now the govt spends more on more people being in the LCWRA group and either not working at all or still working (when they're supposed to have limited capability for 'work related activity'?!) than if they kept the smaller amount for people to stay on LCW and still willingly continue working more/more people working.

Aibu to think this is going to go the same way if they make these changes for pip?

Also aibu to think instead of the govt making it harder to get pip at all, they can keep this new points rule for the enhanced group instead, making it so that to get enhanced, you have to be severely affected in most or all areas.

(Note I'm disabled too).

No, it will affect a lot of people. The assessors do not always get it right in the first place, and have been known to not apply points, where they should have, resulting in incorrect awards. All that will happen if they continue down this road, is mass appeals, the like that they will take an age to deal with, which will have undesirable costs attached to that. There is already a massive outstanding pile of reviews that they are nowhere on top of.

No, of course I don’t hope that I get worse in the future. But without the PIP that I currently get I cannot envisage a future in which I get any better or even stay the same as I am now. And the. I will be in dire straits because I won’t be able to work. And if that happens then yes, I absolutely will hope I get worse so I qualify because what other hope is there?

Sorry to hear that you feel those would be your options. Hopefully the Government will face huge opposition, which they already are, but the House Of Lords will not action their plans. There is a long way to go, before any of this can see the light of day. It is not an easy time to be disabled right now, with all of this bombardment being levelled at disabled people.🌷

Thank you. I’m really hoping so. Things are financially tricky enough for everyone at the moment aren’t they? Being disabled just adds another level of stress and pressure to it.

I agree, the costs involved for the extra needs of people with disabilities, are not always even met with the amount that PIP pays. I hope that the Government starts actually listening to people who live with disabilities. Of course now, especially would be the time for people to write to their MP's letting them know, what the impact of these proposals are having on them.

💐
This is exactly what I've said and have been saying. Posters just like to argue unnecessarily or be deliberately obtuse.

It shows narrow-mindedness or privilege or both to think some people can't be affected enough to consider certain drastic measures or think the worst, enough to declare that "NO ONE...!". Must be nice to not ever have been in such a dire situation or know anyone ever in such situations.

I think that if we could start from a position that most people would like to be part of the community, with meaningful and satisfying employment and aspirations for their own and the countries future, rather than how do we move the boundaries on support to skim off the bludgers and the not-so-disabled disabled, we would have a far better chance of keeping everyone safe and strong and growing.
Like many who post on these threads I know more than I would like to about disability benefits. The newspapers, and media in general and many many unpleasant and frankly ignorant posts in the last few weeks have been damaging. I’ve been reluctant to go out and feel othered in a way that surprises me. We can do better as a country and we can do better as individuals.

I agree. I think that getting help to fill out the forms is key. They are designed to be a minefield for the lay person. And not filled in correctly, could see someone being denied the correct award.

@Snapncrackle you are ignorant of the facts - maybe because you have no real life experience? Is the problem that claimants who are naive to the process exaggerate (perhaps egged on by nasty online advocates like citizens advice) needs or that assessors who are not medically trained and have targets to meet underscore - points are scored by assessors not claimants. They have the final say. You can say whatever you like in your questionnaire and provide evidence but the assessor can overrule it with no evidence.

That’s why so many appeals are won. There is a ton of evidence to support. There is no evidence to refute. There should be a trial of evidence before putting the appellant through the stress of tribunal but there’s not. Just the hope that justified claimants will be overwhelmed and will give up.

Here's hoping, that they will see how damaging their proposals will be, to an already vulnerable, disadvantaged group of people, and rethink the whole process, as it is not fit for purpose, but their plans are not right either.

This! Especially your last sentence. The whole system is designed to frustrate and demoralise claimants. The fact that 70% of decisions are overturned at tribunal is an absolute disgrace considering it can take a year to get heard - a year with no support you actually qualify for!

They could save a shit load on admin/court costs by not being nobs in the first place.

Actually if you go back and read some of. My previous post on here
you will see that I’ve mentioned that I’ve actually filled out pip forms for several people friend and family members and they all got high rate care & mobility

so carry on and call me ignorant if you like

i I have no issue with people claiming any benefit at all and had no problems in filling out the forms for them if asked

and none of them had to appeal either

Oh and I have plenty of life experience
maybe I just got lucky that I filled out 5 maybe 6 forms in the past 18 months -2 years or so for friends & family members and none of them had to appeal and they all got the highest rate in both sections

and when it comes to doing the forms again I will quite happily do them for them

I don’t find them hard to do and I’ve always been the person that people ask to fill out forms when they need doing 😂 no idea why

2 of the claims were a renewal the AR1 form I think it’s called which I did the original claim form from

I also filled out the online forms so they could get blue badges via there pip forms once they got there award

so I have plenty of life experience in filling out such forms successfully and I also live in the real world unlike some people

I’m perfectly aware that tribunals over
70 percent get overturned

I’ve been to 2 tribunals with people that I know and they were both overturned by the tribunal judges and it was obvious that the assessor was completely wrong in there assement ( but I didn’t fill out the original forms )

I agree-I was awarded PIP without having to request mandatory reconsideration, but the nurse assessment (telephone) was surprisingly adversarial and took just over 2 hours, I was also told it couldn't be recorded. I suspect asking the assessor to read back what she had written and correcting where necessary, as did the sheer volume of medical evidence I had provided (MRI scans, consultant letters, print out of GP consultations, prescriptions etc.) and the fact that when asked to explain my mobility for the fifth time, I replied that there was nothing I could truthfully add or take away, as what I had described in second by second detail was accurate. My LCWRA assessment was equally robust, but was more of a conversation with a lovely physio assessor.

If someone has severe mental health problems and under secondary care (the Community Mental Health Team), the person could prove their suicidal ideation
through their records:

1. MH services tell their patients to go to A & E, as a safe place - where they will have an assessment by a psychiatrist. A discharge summary is sent to the GP
2. Logs of calls to the Mental Health Crisis team, the Single Point of Access and “Duty”
3. Visits in person to “Duty” - their patients in crisis can just turn up at the MH centre and will be seen by someone on “Duty” without an appointment
4. Regular psychiatric assessments
5. Police records, including the patient being on their database of vulnerable people (with a photograph)
6. Visits to the Urgent Treatment Centre for Mental Health, where they will have an assessment
7. Crisis Team home visits and face to face assessments
8. Subject Access Request for their mental health records at the Community Mental Health Care Team, such as the notes of the MDT meetings of 20 professionals about the patient and their therapist’s notes
9. In patient assessments and staff observations at a mental health unit
10. An NHS funded stay at a Rethink Crisis House

I assume the Samaritans and the Mind Nightline keep call logs, and Mind keep notes of conversations at their Nighttime Cafes?

Anybody who thinks GPs are the only people, who come into contact with patients with complex mental health problems and suicidal ideation is naive.

I think you are naïve to think that anyone who is suicidal is under some sort of service and has a paper trail to evidence that.
Samaritans is anonymous and don't keep logs.
There is a Mind calming cafe where I live and the only thing in terms of paperwork they can provide is the dates you attended. They do not give any other information. Same for people who attend the day services too. We are told they can not provide evidence for WCA or PIP, they can just confirm you attend.
You can also be very unwell mentally and not be under any services. Not everyone feels unwell and starts a paper trail. Some people go under the radar, either because they don't want help, or don't know how to get it. I went from no input or paper trail to being sectioned. Literally overnight. I was unwell for a very long time leading up to that. I didn't seek help because I didn't want it hence why I was sectioned.

I am not naive. The fact is there will be police and/or A & E records for most people who have made a serious suicide attempt, causing themselves some harm?

See one of my previous posts, where I talked about revolving door patients in in patient units, where all the other patients (except DD) were under Section 2 or 3 for psychosis. They got stable with regular meds and meals in the ward, but then when they were discharged, they were not under the CMHT at all, so they stopped taking the meds - and they deteriorated to the point they were sectioned again and readmitted a few months later!

My brother was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia 40 years ago. I have seen his journey through services and treatments.

I don’t know what paperwork the Samaritans keep; but I have worked on Nightline at my university - where a Samaritan trained us and oversaw the service. We had to keep logs of all calls, even anonymous ones, because we could still recognise the repeat callers, sex callers, etc and it was helpful to read past call notes on them. It’s also a way to justify funding!

PS - we didn’t know my brother had paranoid schizophrenia, until he was sectioned after an overdose. We knew he was stressed, depressed and very angry - but he never told us, he was paranoid and hearing nasty, critical voices. GPs are not mind readers - they only can treat and refer what patients disclose. That’s on patients, if they don’t tell the truth!

Same here. Mine scored 50. Should have been much higher. I’ll do the same as you. They’re about to shoot themselves in the foot.