To think that the new PIP benefit proposal could lead to the same issues as Universal credit's new LCW policy...?

[Tiredofthegovtsuselessdecisions]

...which is to push some people to claim they are sicker than they really are just to keep their money?

I believe the government proposal is going to add to many people either exaggerating their symptoms to get 4 points in atleast one description for daily living or hope their illness gets worse enough to achieve the 4 points. Either way, it's unfair on ill and disabled people to have to think this way. They're ill enough as it is and deserve the support even if they get all 2 points in each.

It could increase the so-called fraud that people keep going on about because everyone wants to keep their money to be able to survive and people will do anything it takes to do this, including those who outrightly lie and scam the system.

This is exactly what happened when the govt stopped payments for universal credit LCW group where many were quite happy to stay in. Now everyone scrambles to prove that they are too ill to do any sort of work so they can be put in the LCWRA group and get the money, yet still be allowed to work! How does that make any sense? Now the govt spends more on more people being in the LCWRA group and either not working at all or still working (when they're supposed to have limited capability for 'work related activity'?!) than if they kept the smaller amount for people to stay on LCW and still willingly continue working more/more people working.

Aibu to think this is going to go the same way if they make these changes for pip?

Also aibu to think instead of the govt making it harder to get pip at all, they can keep this new points rule for the enhanced group instead, making it so that to get enhanced, you have to be severely affected in most or all areas.

(Note I'm disabled too).

And how would the GP know if they are suicidal other than what the person tells them?

Just pulling up a chair, while I wait for those posters to flock here agreeing with you, on that score.

Spot on! I actually didn't add the fact that you'd then need pip to get lcwra so yes I agree those who couldn't be bothered/didn't want to go through the stress of getting pip will be forced to just to keep lwcra and so on. They'll like have more people on these benefits/higher rates, not fewer as they think.

This is also the sort of govt decisions that can lead to some people 'scamming the system'. Some people here can pretend it doesn't happen but it does.

Well true. But when I did my PIP forms I had to detail everything so thoroughly. They contacted my GP, psychiatrist and psychologist to fact check.

I don’t know any disabled people who would want to be more disabled to access more money. In fact quite the opposite. I know a lot of disabled people.

I agree with a poster upthread who said just be honest on the form and ask for help filling it out. It’s quite long but the “difficulty” for me was the crushing feeling of seeing it all in black and white. I welcome less reviews as that will mean we can get on with things rather than listing our deficits.

I think that there will be a change in the scoring system so that getting 4 points in any descriptor will be harder and require more evidence. It will be interesting to see the impact assessment that is due next week, hopefully it will identify what % of daily living PIP awards would fail the new rule, and even more useful if presented by type of disability (that might be too potentially difficult to defend though).

@Ohthatsabitshit

I don’t know any disabled people who would want to be more disabled to access more money. In fact quite the opposite. I know a lot of disabled people.

I understand what you're saying and sort of agree but the point is that it's not 'more money' but the only money they rely on. The people in this category won't be any less ill or disabled because the govt now says they don't qualify for what they previously did. So they're sort of left to fall through the cracks of either not being able to work and have no pip or being able to work like they did but have no pip which they needed to enable them work (This would then mean they may not be able to work).

What would someone in that situation do: die off because they can't afford the cost of living while being ill/disabled and can't work anymore due to no pip or exaggerate their illness to get the money they should be entitled to so they can either live or be able to continue working?

It's a vicious cycle that is present and will happen if this goes ahead.

I remember years ago a friends sister loved to ride her bike. The girl had SEN and her mum applied for DLA. The mum openly admitted that she didn’t allow her DD to bike ride anymore as she had said she couldn’t to get a higher rate. The mum was furious when the school physio was using bike riding as therapy to strengthen her muscles.
Recently in a Facebook group a woman was concerned that is she followed her GPs advice to walk more to get better she may lose the PIP she had just been awarded.

There should be concern over the fact that in order to keep PIP there will be some people who will allow themselves to get worse in order to fit new criteria.

Of course there will be genuine people who miss out but there will also be those working the system like the examples above.

Some people already have. Some of them have commented too. Perhaps if you get off your high horse seat, you can take a look to actually read some of the posts and see for yourself if you really want to. Otherwise you're not adding anything to this thread so please stop derailing if you have nothing worthwhile to add to it. Have a seat🪑 😉

I really do not believe anyone would wish their symptoms got worse just to be in the 4 point group. Anyway once the government realises they won't save as much money as they believe they will at a future point simply raise the bar further to 2 categories of 4 points.

@Indoorplants I agree. The points awarded for some sections were ludicrous but not a battle worth fighting because overall points meant DS1 was still awarded higher rate.

The last review wasn’t even acknowledged even though or because he had deteriorated so points are over 6 years old. His PIP is currently being reviewed (I recently received a letter saying his award had been extended for a year due to backlog!).

He is now 24 and I will absolutely appeal any downgrading even if he continues to score over 4 in some categories. Eg it is ridiculous to conclude he can cope with complex financial budgets when I am DWP appointee, have POA and manage every aspect of his finances. Where is their evidence?

Now I know for sure that the goalposts can be moved and his award is not secure it is absolutely essential that needs are accurately recorded in the first place. Needs have not got worse, they were inaccurately scored.

Claimants don’t have to exaggerate or ‘hope’ their condition worsens to score 4 points - they can use existing evidence that documented needs have been underscored.

Appeal made no material difference before but does if underscoring means loss of living element plus loss of support group for ESA plus loss of CA plus loss of carers in UC. The loss of £1000+ income per month makes it very worthwhile to challenge underscoring.

Ok, so your point is that 'having 4 points in any one category and 18/12 overall' is the wrong line, rather than that having a line at all will cause perverse incentives? I think that's a reasonable point of view, but it isn't the point being made in the OP.

I think having different rules for new and existing claimants is the worst of all worlds: it's clearly unfair, by definition means someone is on a system that you think is less well calibrated and so you haven't fixed the underlying problem, and it creates even more of an incentive for people to not do anything, even positive things, that might mean they will temporarily not need benefits as then they can't go back onto the legacy system.

I agree with you OP
but what will happen is
they will lose PIP
so also lose lcwrc & the premium for disability so that’s around 800 a month
plus rent say Low rent of 500 a month
plus council tax say 200 a month

plus carers if they have a carer
so of course there is a massive incentive to exaggerate or to appeal and make sure they get the correct points
a lot of people don’t appeal as it’s just to distressing

but they will be put on jobseekers to find a job so they will get the rent / council tax back but there might be a gap in this so could fall behind in rent

they will appeal the pip & most likely the people at the JC will turn of any work commitments - just as they can do now because of the persons ability to get work because of there disability

they will appeal the PIP And most likely get it reinstated

nothing really changes I can think back far enough to when tax credits first came out and they advertised them in the papers and on telly

This is nothing new ( if it actually gets through) and it will probably be watererd down a bit to maybe 3 points and everyone will be grateful it’s not 4 points

There is already a 2 tier system
if your on legacy benefits and you get the severe disability premium you already get around 240 a month more than someone with the exact same conditions / health in UC as there js no SDP in UC

even if you transfer over or migrate your SDP is protected and you get it although it won’t go up with inflation so it will over time be eroded

I think having different rules for new and existing claimants is the worst of all worlds: it's clearly unfair, by definition means someone is on a system that you think is less well calibrated and so you haven't fixed the underlying problem, and it creates even more of an incentive for people to not do anything, even positive things, that might mean they will temporarily not need benefits as then they can't go back onto the legacy system.

Fair enough. It's also what has happened with the LCW criteria. The cut off for not receiving anything is 2017, I believe. So new claimants aren't getting any money for being on LCW while old claimants still are. No one wants to be on the LCW group now because of this.

Surely, as much as it will affect some disabled people, it will be the ones who are claiming it and aren't bona fide who the changes will be affecting more?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, I'm not in receipt of PIP so am not too familiar with all of the details.

Yes. Yes they do. I have been close to it myself. I have ME/CFS and have a poor quality of life. I manage to work part time but nearly all of my available energy has to go into ensuring that I’m ok to get through each day at work. I don’t have a social life and I don’t have hobbies. Before I got ill, I had quite a normal life, friends, went out for drinks, ran a few times per week, went to the gym etc. all of that has gone now.

I get the lowest daily living allowance part of PIP and it pays for the therapies, supplements and specialist diet that I need in order to function well enough to work part time. I scored some points for the mobility assessment but not enough to qualify for the mobility element. My mobility is extremely important to me and I work hard to keep as much of it as I can. I force myself to walk a short distance each day, have physio, take supplements etc. But there have been times when I’ve been in so much pain for so long and so utterly fatigued that it has felt like the easiest thing to do would be to surrender to it, to stop trying, to lose most of my mobility and qualify for the mobility element and probably the higher daily living element, to stop working because I can’t stay awake and everything hurts/feels sick. I’m proud and I don’t want to do that, so I hang on by a thread doing everything I can to stay mobile and able to work, but my God I can see how tempting it would be to let it all go and surrender to letting everything get worse because it is just exhausting.

Oh, and I will likely lose my PIP because I didn’t score 4 points in any area during my last assessment. So I won’t be able to afford the things that allow me to feel ok enough to work. And so therefore I will probably get worse and eventually end up needing all of PIP because of it. Utterly needless.

There's no rhyme or reason for this shit show. Stop trying to rationalise it.

Who is paying for food banks? To get people off the streets? Staffing suicide lines?

The government is doing what the Tories want to do and getting people to rely on charities and public good will. They're dismantling the welfare state and we're going back to Victorian times.

Instead of investing in public services that would mean people are treated and supported and can be less reliant on the state, they're passing the burden onto the general public.

People who currently can manage to work part time with the help from PIP and lose it will try and work more hours and become sicker or have breakdowns and end up not working at all. I think it will end up with less people working (or suicides.) Definitely less quality of life.

Surely in this day and age where feelings matter more than facts people can just identify as seriously disabled and the state has to cough up?

it does seem bizarre to me that someone with an illness, even those with visible or lifelong disabilities has to prove it, but there’s a whole section of society which the state will readily believe and accept their feelings as fact…and even pay for cosmetic surgery/medication to affirm those feelings. Yet if you’re an amputee in a wheelchair it depends on how many points you get to whether the state decides you’re disabled enough for support. What you think and feel about your situation is completely irrelevant.

It doesn’t make sense.

Those people always find a way. These changes never really bother them as they amp up whatever strategy they have.

It's those genuine people that it will affect that suffer for it.

But if they’re already falsely claiming then ramping up a condition they’re already lying about, or at least exaggerating is no great hardship is it?

Exactly
people will lie , exaggerate visit doctors more to “get evidence “ and they will appeal more

you can do the PIP test online and work out exactly what point you need and what you need to get it

I don’t get why people think that people won’t do this when they are already doing it

I would imagine that most of the “fraud “ come from people not updating the claims if they have gotten a bit better
So a genuine claim to start with

I hear what you are saying, but the point that I was making is that no one would want to be more ill to qualify for whatever benefit. No one! That is what the OP was saying, and she is wrong. Do you honestly hope that your situation gets worse, so you will qualify in future?