Page 4 | So what did the Adolescence psychologist’s report state?

sideeyes · 2025-03-19T17:14:49+00:00

I have been thinking about this for a few days. What do you think?

5128gap · 21/03/2025 13:02

GoneOffTheRails · 21/03/2025 12:34

I think the reaction to the dad is overblown.

He was the one who saw the CCTV of his son murdering a girl, he was the one in the room with him when he was being questioned. He had his own plumbing business which was being targeted by vandals and his son was being locked up. What happened was all over social media and no doubt his business was also being hit financially.

But people are saying it’s his fault because he has a bad temper and anger issues. How do people expect him to react to having his work van vandalised and be accused of being a nonce? Or is any show of anger or frustration from a man considered “toxic” now?

I thought it showed he was trying to do the right things for his family.

Its not the anger and upset, which are obviously understandable. It's the more subtle indications of how a man was treated in that family. Eddie was clearly in charge, with his wife and daughter deferring to him, and showing quite a lot of nervous fawning, calming and trying to please him. That his word was law was clear in the way he shouted at his wife, right in her face, when she suggested they move, for example. Eddie wasn't 'toxic' by himself, its the household dynamic he and Mand had created together, and had learned from their own upbringing and traditional roles in society that was toxic. As PP said, when Jamie wasn't the sort of male to command that level of subservience and adoration from girls himself it was a problem for him in a way it may not have been if he hadn't grown up with that role modelling.

CaptainMyCaptain · 21/03/2025 13:03

Ace56 · 19/03/2025 18:22

Agree, the last episode was a let down tbh. We didn’t need 15 mins of them chatting in the van about when they met, such a waste of screen time. I also would’ve liked to have seen the trial/sentencing.

I thought that was about their solid relationship but also his volatile temper.

Trallala · 21/03/2025 13:05

AlmosttimeforChristmas · 21/03/2025 12:05

I’m inclined to agree. I thought the actress herself did an excellent job with the script she was given but I don’t think she was scripted a very good child psychologist! I did wonder, though, if there was some implication that she had herself been the victim of male violence? Hence getting way too upset. She wouldn’t have lasted long in the job if that was how she was supposed to have normally gone on!

I disagree - I think being able to hold it together and then have an appropriate emotional response after the client has gone is a positive sign. Once you become hardened to the job and don't feel your feelings you lose all sense of nuance or the ability to see clients as individuals. It's vital that psychologists see clients as human people, rather than a set of symptoms or behaviours or trauma responses otherwise assessment becomes a tick-box exercise. A good psychologist will have a full range of human responses, but also the control to not express them in front of a client, and bloody good clinical supervision to unpack them and debrief afterwards.

The last thing a child in such a desperate situation needs is someone who has lost the ability to access their own empathy

SleepingCatBlanket · 21/03/2025 13:06

GoneOffTheRails · 21/03/2025 12:34

I think the reaction to the dad is overblown.

He was the one who saw the CCTV of his son murdering a girl, he was the one in the room with him when he was being questioned. He had his own plumbing business which was being targeted by vandals and his son was being locked up. What happened was all over social media and no doubt his business was also being hit financially.

But people are saying it’s his fault because he has a bad temper and anger issues. How do people expect him to react to having his work van vandalised and be accused of being a nonce? Or is any show of anger or frustration from a man considered “toxic” now?

I thought it showed he was trying to do the right things for his family.

This is really interesting, because watching episode 4 I cycled between the dad as a normal bloke trying to do the best for his family under awful pressure and circumstances. And him as emotionally illiterate, misogynistic, abusive man, having a proportion (not all) of direct responsibility for Jamie's behaviour.

Him feeling anger to what was going on in episode 4 would be normal. But it was his actions that were not acceptable (assaulting and threatening the teenage boy, throwing paint over his van) He was out of control then. And at that point he didn't acknowledge it, neither did the wife or daughter. A one off out of character loosing control, and apologising afterwards is one thing. But in a larger context of the dad's (and family's) thoughts and behaviours it's something else.

A lot of the points I raised earlier were about him and the family before Jamie killed Katy. So this was dad without the awful pressure. The way mum and daughter managed his emotions would have been a long held pattern.

And it's not just the dad we're talking about. Why was the mum so passive/absent? She bares responsibility too. She could have advocated for Jamie and helped him to feel comfortable in his own skin. "Stop making him do football, he doesn't like it, I've found a drawing class for him" Or"Jamie I expect you home at 7pm tonight we're going to watch a film and eat popcorn"

Spandaupants · 21/03/2025 13:07

Id have been happy with one or two more episodes. They obviously left certain things ambiguous on purpose?

placemats · 21/03/2025 13:08

CarraghInish · 21/03/2025 12:32

I thought the security guard was very creepy, and clearly made the psychologist feel uncomfortable. Pushy, trying to undermine her, inserting himself into her personal space, hovering behind her and whispering in her ear… As if he was a different version of the boy in custody. Overreaching, seeking her approval, using his physical presence to make her notice him. So she was under pressure to be calm and patient during a difficult task in both those rooms, with a male trying to win her over, interfere with her work or intimidate her. No wonder she was shaky by the end of it.

Perfect post in a thread that is very insightful and interesting.

Nearing close to the anniversary of my 99 years old Mum's death who was fantastic and we all helped with the carers and nurses in her last weeks. But the brothers in the family really expected the daughters to be the main carers, whilst at the same time wanted emotional support for their grief. I found it exhausting and was angry at times, i.e. being unhelpful when I and my sisters had done the bulk of the work. Rant over.

Will continue to read this thread because of the insightful comments. Thank you all.

MrsSunshine2b · 21/03/2025 13:13

SleepingCatBlanket · 21/03/2025 08:42

normal family who have done their best, and ended up with one (female) child who had turned out lovely, which highlights that they were not the cause of the boy’s behaviour.

I think this is the most important bit of it all. They are a normal family, obviously not to blame... And yet...

Dad is the decision maker, the head of the house.
Dad was physically abused by his dad
Dad's temper is barely held in check
Mum and daughter manage dad's emotions, help him to regulate
Dad is ashamed of son not being masculine
Dad can't find a way to connect with son so allows him to spend hours alone
Son allowed to wander streets at 13 until around 10pm

Mum seems entirely absent in parenting son. She's home in the evening, but imposed no reasonable curfew or encouraged him to get out of his room. She allowed dad to take son to football and boxing when those activities wouldn't suit him. Son's opinion of mum is that she makes a good roast dinner.

Very traditional gender roles in the family. Subtle "harmless" misogyny eg dad calling mum and daughter "girls". Mum asking daughter "is your boyfriend looking after you?"

Jamie doesn't fit this family's image of a son. Jamie is small, slight, weak in appearance. His interests are typically "feminine". He feels inadequate. By his family's expectations of gender roles, he is inadequate. At the same time he's given the implicit message from the family that men should be pandered to, listened to, appeased. Then he's allowed free rein on the internet. He is the perfect target to be radicalised by incel narratives. Entitled, inadequately 'masculine' , not meeting his own expectations and very vulnerable.

And then he meets a girl who doesn't treat him like his mum and his sister treat his dad.

I agree to an extent with everything you say, except that this isn't "normal".

At the end of the day, it's a working class family doing their best. The only roadmap they have is the traditional one laid out before them. Dad is attempting to break the cycle of abuse and has been successful in not passing down physical abuse, but hasn't perfectly managed to control his anger. His Mum is copying the same pattern she probably grew up with, where her role is to take care of everyone's emotions and Jamie appears to be fine.

There are millions of similar families, and in 90% of them, the kids will grow up, recognise that their parents tried but didn't always get it right, and try to improve on that again for the next generation.

I think the problem is that the online space- which many parents don't understand or perceive as dangerous- is full of rhetoric aimed at capturing young people whilst they are still vulnerable and full of hormones and anger and confusion, and radicalising them before they get to adulthood.

If there wasn't millions of potential Jamies living in millions of similar homes, then Adolescence wouldn't have been relevant.

placemats · 21/03/2025 13:14

GoBackToTheStart · 21/03/2025 12:29

Ironically, I feel that there was still too much emphasis on the males. I know this is about a boy committing an awful crime but the female characters were all a bit caricature for me. The Mum and Daughter, as someone has said, placating the dad. The best friend shown as a bit troubled and acting out. And barely a single thing about the victim. There was just no proper representation of how this affects women and girls

I've just posted this on another thread, but I think this was a very deliberate choice and probably the right one. It's why they acknowledged the fact that most reports and dramas focus on the man while the victim is forgotten in episode 2. The manosphere attracts disillusioned boys. One of the reasons boys, and particularly white boys, feel disillusioned and attracted to Andrew Tate and the manosphere is that they feels like they aren't centred in anything - in part because there is such an upsurge in representation for women, LGBT+, and racial discrimination and violence etc ("when you're privileged, equality feels like discrimination"). There's a reason the time "International Men's Day" is most searched on google is on International Women's Day! If they want to get the message through to boys and men (and parents of boys) that these attitudes are damaging and insidious then it needs to focus on them, otherwise it's relying on empathy to explain why it's an issue and the focus becomes "don't do this because it's harmful to girls". It would be great if that message worked but, frankly, it doesn't, because boys and men with the red pill attitude already see women as lesser and they don't care - that's why they do these things. They need to see why attitudes like this are bad for them too and how easily they can arise.

I think the impact on girls and women of societal attitudes like this deserves a full series on its own to explore all of the events in the run up covering the impact on them of her death, but also Katie's life. Why did Katie send topless photos? How did it impact her having them sent around? What were school doing about it? What was the behaviour of Ryan and Jamie like towards the girls to cause such fury in Jade that she knew he was involved? How involved were her parents in monitoring her social media usage? It's the same sort of message - do you actually know what it going on in your child's life under the surface, are you keeping them safe from harm and radical ideology, and how as parents are your attitudes and behaviours putting your children at risk? Definitely enough for a 4 part series with a really important message.

Actually my post above was meant to be to this post.

Perfect post in a thread that is very insightful and interesting.

Nearing close to the anniversary of my 99 years old Mum's death who was fantastic and we all helped with the carers and nurses in her last weeks. But the brothers in the family really expected the daughters to be the main carers, whilst at the same time wanted emotional support for their grief. I found it exhausting and was angry at times, i.e. being unhelpful when I and my sisters had done the bulk of the work. Rant over.

Will continue to read this thread because of the insightful comments. Thank you all.

CaptainMyCaptain · 21/03/2025 13:15

CheekySnake · 21/03/2025 12:16

I didn't read the daughter's behaviour as a sign that she was lovely at all.

I saw a teenage girl working desperately hard to manage her parent's emotions, particularly her father's, by being overly calm and nice and good. When she rallied them at the end, it just made me feel a bit ill. Been there, got that t-shirt. Parentification/codependency at work.

I think it showed, albeit subtly, that the two children had had very different responses to growing up in a household with an angry man.

Show quote history

Yes but her parents didn't pick up on that and saw her as lovely, a success.

Ceramiq · 21/03/2025 13:17

We don't learn what was in the psychologist's report because it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. Jamie is not ugly and he would inevitably have been successful with girls (especially in that casting horror show of a secondary school).

GottaWork · 21/03/2025 13:20

GoBackToTheStart · 21/03/2025 12:29

Ironically, I feel that there was still too much emphasis on the males. I know this is about a boy committing an awful crime but the female characters were all a bit caricature for me. The Mum and Daughter, as someone has said, placating the dad. The best friend shown as a bit troubled and acting out. And barely a single thing about the victim. There was just no proper representation of how this affects women and girls

I've just posted this on another thread, but I think this was a very deliberate choice and probably the right one. It's why they acknowledged the fact that most reports and dramas focus on the man while the victim is forgotten in episode 2. The manosphere attracts disillusioned boys. One of the reasons boys, and particularly white boys, feel disillusioned and attracted to Andrew Tate and the manosphere is that they feels like they aren't centred in anything - in part because there is such an upsurge in representation for women, LGBT+, and racial discrimination and violence etc ("when you're privileged, equality feels like discrimination"). There's a reason the time "International Men's Day" is most searched on google is on International Women's Day! If they want to get the message through to boys and men (and parents of boys) that these attitudes are damaging and insidious then it needs to focus on them, otherwise it's relying on empathy to explain why it's an issue and the focus becomes "don't do this because it's harmful to girls". It would be great if that message worked but, frankly, it doesn't, because boys and men with the red pill attitude already see women as lesser and they don't care - that's why they do these things. They need to see why attitudes like this are bad for them too and how easily they can arise.

I think the impact on girls and women of societal attitudes like this deserves a full series on its own to explore all of the events in the run up covering the impact on them of her death, but also Katie's life. Why did Katie send topless photos? How did it impact her having them sent around? What were school doing about it? What was the behaviour of Ryan and Jamie like towards the girls to cause such fury in Jade that she knew he was involved? How involved were her parents in monitoring her social media usage? It's the same sort of message - do you actually know what it going on in your child's life under the surface, are you keeping them safe from harm and radical ideology, and how as parents are your attitudes and behaviours putting your children at risk? Definitely enough for a 4 part series with a really important message.

'It would be great if that message worked but, frankly, it doesn't, because boys and men with the red pill attitude already see women as lesser and they don't care - that's why they do these things. They need to see why attitudes like this are bad for them too and how easily they can arise.'

Really good point. I hadn't thought of it that way.

AlmosttimeforChristmas · 21/03/2025 13:23

Trallala · 21/03/2025 13:05

I disagree - I think being able to hold it together and then have an appropriate emotional response after the client has gone is a positive sign. Once you become hardened to the job and don't feel your feelings you lose all sense of nuance or the ability to see clients as individuals. It's vital that psychologists see clients as human people, rather than a set of symptoms or behaviours or trauma responses otherwise assessment becomes a tick-box exercise. A good psychologist will have a full range of human responses, but also the control to not express them in front of a client, and bloody good clinical supervision to unpack them and debrief afterwards.

The last thing a child in such a desperate situation needs is someone who has lost the ability to access their own empathy

Show quote history

I actually agree with everything you say! I still don’t think she handled the meeting particularly well though ;).
I think her tone was excessively confrontational quite a lot of the time me

Breakitdownplease · 21/03/2025 13:27

I completely disagree about the last episode. I thought it showed you exactly where Jamie's anger came from being raised in a household with toxic masculinity/dad with anger issues and delving into his dad's unresolved past trauma which no doubt was in some way responsible for how Jamie turned out. It was clear the mum and daughter walked on eggshells around the dad.
Each episode showed us that it was a combination of factors that lead to the crime. The school/community, the parenting, or lack of it. The dangers of the internet/incel stuff and online bullying. It all contributed to Jamie becoming what he did.

MrsSunshine2b · 21/03/2025 13:30

CaptainMyCaptain · 21/03/2025 13:15

Yes but her parents didn't pick up on that and saw her as lovely, a success.

Show quote history

To be fair, when your brother murders a classmate, it's a given that you're going to be perceived as lovely in comparison. 😂

raffegiraffe · 21/03/2025 13:30

Crocmush · 21/03/2025 12:52

Has anyone who's watched it with a similarly aged child found this positive? How does the dc react to it - what is it going to make them think about themselves?

I think this is an interesting question and I'm still thinking about it. Son 15 watched it alone. Daughter 13 watched it with her dad.
My son thinks it happened because Jamie was bullied, by Katie. My daughter thinks it's because Jamie "was a misogynist"
I've spoken to my daughter about how men can be dangerous when they feel insulted/ humiliated.
My son I think struggles sometimes. A few years ago he was quoting Andrew Tate but I think that has passed. What he does see is a very mixed bag of qualities in his parents that doesn't fall in to usual gender roles. It seems to empower my daughter but confuse my son. He has actively turned away from any feminist ideas I have tried to talk to him about. Maybe precisely because they are coming from his mum.

Thisissuss · 21/03/2025 13:32

GoneOffTheRails · 21/03/2025 12:34

I think the reaction to the dad is overblown.

He was the one who saw the CCTV of his son murdering a girl, he was the one in the room with him when he was being questioned. He had his own plumbing business which was being targeted by vandals and his son was being locked up. What happened was all over social media and no doubt his business was also being hit financially.

But people are saying it’s his fault because he has a bad temper and anger issues. How do people expect him to react to having his work van vandalised and be accused of being a nonce? Or is any show of anger or frustration from a man considered “toxic” now?

I thought it showed he was trying to do the right things for his family.

This is actually how I think a lot of men will perceive this (not calling you a man here just acknowledging some will read it this way). I think it is important to express to boys that certain situations ARE stressful, but bottling it up and not explaining how you feel is hugely counterproductive to everyone around you. We know men always say they hate "talking" as in therapy, but this is exactly the crux of emotional intelligence and not understanding that people aren't telepathic, don't have your same views on the world and won't always be bullied into going along with you. Teaching boys empathy by getting them to express themselves verbally would be a great start. For example if the dad had said something in the morning about being upset rather than glossing over everything and making the family go to B&Q in an obvious bad mood that everyone had to tiptoe around, awaiting the explosion. It is actually the opposite of men not having feelings- it is about stewing and being toxic which leads to violence because men can't express themselves for fear of being called a "nonce".

sandgreen · 21/03/2025 13:44

GoneOffTheRails · 21/03/2025 12:34

I think the reaction to the dad is overblown.

He was the one who saw the CCTV of his son murdering a girl, he was the one in the room with him when he was being questioned. He had his own plumbing business which was being targeted by vandals and his son was being locked up. What happened was all over social media and no doubt his business was also being hit financially.

But people are saying it’s his fault because he has a bad temper and anger issues. How do people expect him to react to having his work van vandalised and be accused of being a nonce? Or is any show of anger or frustration from a man considered “toxic” now?

I thought it showed he was trying to do the right things for his family.

Yes I felt this, he clearly had his faults but never thought he was one step from hitting his wife or daughter. He was completely on the edge at that point, every facet of the life he knew destroyed by his son’s actions.

Jade520 · 21/03/2025 13:51

To me. from growing up in the 80's this seemed like a very typical family. It was normal for a dad to work and not be that involved with the kids. For him to have a quick temper and deal with stuff by yelling every now and then. For mum to calm everything down again. Nobody took their son to ballet or encouraged them to be artistic.

I would say I knew more families like that than any other way. including my own. We didn't going round killing anyone though - but we didn't have the internet or social media, taunting us, comparing us and egging us on 24/7.

RaspberryBeretxx · 21/03/2025 14:01

Crocmush · 21/03/2025 12:52

Has anyone who's watched it with a similarly aged child found this positive? How does the dc react to it - what is it going to make them think about themselves?

I watched it with my 13 yo DS. I was actually surprised he engaged with it so much and thought he'd find some of the in depth character stuff more boring. It was very interesting to see his views sway through the episodes from the first one thinking he couldn't possibly have done it and being very much on Jamie's side, really identifying with him. We kept stopping to google things - police procedure, why would you say "no comment" in an interview, definition of the manosphere, red pill, 80/20 thing being a manipulation of statistics from one study etc. So, it definitely helped spark a lot of good conversations and learning that I hope we'll carry on with. I think he was unsettled a bit emotionally by it and it made him think but in a positive way if that makes sense and he wasn't scared by it.

Whatafustercluck · 21/03/2025 14:30

Crocmush · 21/03/2025 12:52

Has anyone who's watched it with a similarly aged child found this positive? How does the dc react to it - what is it going to make them think about themselves?

Three positive for me (ds is 14).

He didn't recognise the experience of the school environment. He's not a fan of schoolwork, but said the teachers at his school have way more control of classes and the children just don't behave that way.

He had to ask me what 'incel' is and was similarly perplexed about the other emojis.

He recognised the term 'bitch' as misogynistic and referred to Jamie as a boy with serious anger issues and a cocky attitude.

Clearly, I know it goes way deeper than his interpretation, and although I genuinely believe that ds has little direct awareness or experience of the manosphere, I think what I took from the programme is that teenager, whatever their background, have secrets and display one side of themselves to their parents and another to their peers. Continued parental influence throughout these years to counteract the more detrimental peer influences is absolutely vital. Take time to know where your child is, what they are doing, when and why. Take an interest in their lives, get to understand more about the worlds they emerse themselves in and the friendships they keep.

CulturalNomad · 21/03/2025 14:31

We didn't going round killing anyone though - but we didn't have the internet or social media, taunting us, comparing us and egging us on 24/7

Yes, there has always been bullying and peer pressure. Typically there would be a small group of really popular (and generally physically attractive) teens and the rest of us managed to muddle through puberty/adolescence without deep psychological wounds. But it was certainly a painful time for many.

But social media has changed everything. The awful casual cruelty displayed by almost all the teens in episode 2 was depressing. Passing around nude photos to humiliate and mock the victim. Posting cruel comments on social media meant (again) to humiliate and wound someone (and to gain approval from peers by having your posts "liked"). The net effect being dehumanizing and resulting in a lack of empathy.

What toll does all this take on a young person whose brain isn't even fully developed? What happens to kids who are particularly fragile and vulnerable?

downhere · 21/03/2025 14:49

I think previous posters have nailed it on the male rage aspect of the series.

I have been in two relationships with men who would fly off the handle and as a result found parts of the show very 'triggering'.

Having grown up in an extended family that was very matriarchal with even tempered men and few arguments, it was very shocking to me.

For me, this series really was about male rage and violence. We have to stop it! I think we need to examine closely how we raise boys in our society.

DuesToTheDirt · 21/03/2025 14:58

I was puzzled by the psychologist's references to "women" rather than "girls". In the context of, "Do you follow women on Instagram?" fair enough I suppose, perhaps he's looking at naked adult women. But when she asked him (something like) "Do you have friends who are women?" that seemed a really odd question to a 13 year old. Of course he wouldn't, 13-year olds are not generally friends with adults of either sex. But he might have friends who were girls. After asking him this, and his views on women, a couple of times she changed to talking about girls.

MissyB1 · 21/03/2025 15:01

DuesToTheDirt · 21/03/2025 14:58

I was puzzled by the psychologist's references to "women" rather than "girls". In the context of, "Do you follow women on Instagram?" fair enough I suppose, perhaps he's looking at naked adult women. But when she asked him (something like) "Do you have friends who are women?" that seemed a really odd question to a 13 year old. Of course he wouldn't, 13-year olds are not generally friends with adults of either sex. But he might have friends who were girls. After asking him this, and his views on women, a couple of times she changed to talking about girls.

I was shouting at the TV about that! She was talking to a 13 year old and referring to him knowing or having relationships with "women", very odd!

DuesToTheDirt · 21/03/2025 15:02

Daysgo · 19/03/2025 18:26

Thought the last episode pretty much showed that parents ignored his internet use, hadnt really engaged with him for some time and finally accepted that they could have done more, but the call from him then demonstrated that there was still no real communication between son and parents, other maybe than over the picture he drew. . It was sad though, only way parents seemed to communicate with him was by buying him stuff, and then ignoring what he was doing with it. All very shallow.

This is what a lot of parents do. I find it exasperating it is claimed the answer to inappropriate social media use in teens is "parental controls". So many parents don't know or don't care. We need it to be controlled at source, in some cases with age limits and in others with outright banning. I read an article the other day (about the teenager who shot his family and planned a school shooting) describing a website hosting videos of deaths - executions, suicides, etc. There is some content that nobody should be watching.