To be wary of a man who has set up a group to help women & girls

[Eastie77Returns]

I volunteer and help run a weekly Council led club that helps non English speakers develop conversational skills. There are usually 20 odd women each week and just 2-3 men. About a year ago we had a situation where one of the male attendees was persistently asking women out. This was dealt with and we have not had any issues since but it did heighten my awareness about men joining as a way to meet women.

More recently another man has begun attending regularly. We quickly assessed that he speaks English fluently and clearly doesn’t need to develop the basic language skills we provide so we signposted him to a class for advanced speakers but he continues to attend. This means that when we have group activities he completely dominates the conversation. Myself and the the other volunteers have to closely monitor any group he is in as we realised that the women he is grouped with do not get a chance to speak at all. He will speak at length about complex topics (derailing the activity they are meant to be engaging in) so we have to jump in and steer the group back.

The bigger issue (for me) is that he talks a lot about an organisation he has apparently set up to help girls attend school in his native country. He also does ‘outreach’ in our local area to help women from his home country upskill. There are several women from his home region in the club and I have overheard him in giving them advice about avoiding unscrupulous men and going into quite explicit details about the things men will do to them if they are not careful. I feel he is attending specifically as a way to access these women and the nature of his chat is quite worrying to me. I spoke to the Council member in charge of the club who said she would look into it. The other volunteer thinks I’m perhaps over-reacting but agrees there is an issue with him dominating the group conversations.

I’m now second guessing myself a bit.
I genuinely do not know if the fact I’ve become more sceptical of men as I’ve gotten older is unfairly colouring my perspective with respect to this guy. He is an otherwise pleasant person but I am very dubious about a man running an organisation specifically for women and girls which I acknowledge is unfair.

On the one hand I think it’s a shame that I’m so suspicious of men but on the other hand I think it’s perfectly justified!

Do I think a good man with good intentions can care for women yes.

I believe your op reads like you are wary of this man and are being distracted by NAMALT. I think you need to trust your gut and if things are off to not be deterred by anyone or anything.

Trust your gut instinct.

Trust your gut feelings. In my experience, they are rarely wrong.

I would ask him to leave on the simple basis that he doesn’t need the language help and the class needs to be people on a similar level to work well.

Like you I would have slight misgivings as you about the services he is promoting especially as you hear him having quite graphic conversations with women. I don’t think you can do much about this but at least you can stop him using your sessions to promote his services.

Irrespective of his potentially dodgy motivations he is currently preventing women who attend this group from actually developing their language skills. He needs to be told to go elsewhere or shut up.

What is NAMALT please?

Trust your instincts!

Namalt - not all men are like that

yeah not all men are like that. But some are. Unfortunately quite a lot. So it’s ok to be cautious without worrying you might be judging someone unfairly. If in doubt err on the side of caution.

"We quickly assessed that he speaks English fluently and clearly doesn’t need to develop the basic language skills we provide so we signposted him to a class for advanced speakers but he continues to attend."

He needs to be told not to attend by the course leader. Aside from the safeguarding concerns (and I agree you should trust your gut) he has no need to be there and is hindering the progress of the actual beginners.

You've said yourself that a man who speaks English fluently is attending a female dominated group for those who need more help with their English. He's already approached women who speak his native language and told them who they should not be speaking to. He also wants to help women "upskill".

He's attending your group for a reason and it doesn't sound like it's to improve his English.

If he was a woman would you tell him to leave? If you wouldn't then you can't try to guard these women as it's not only a woman's group. It could be helpful to have someone to translate for the poorer English speakers.

Yes, if the woman was hindering progress of the other learners and also possibly taking a space that another learner could be using. That's without her potentially targeting vulnerable women to convince them to join a dodgy group.

This man has been offered the opportunity to join a more appropriate group but has chosen not to. They're staying put despite not needing the lessons and are using the group to meet vulnerable women.
Approaching the women in such a setting gives them a layer of respectibility which they wouldn't necessarily get else where so the women are more likely to trust them.

What other groups has he put himself in to access women?

Try to be confident and tell him he has to leave the group because it’s not for his level. Be firm or call on someone else to help with this. And absolutely trust your instinct

I think any fluent speaker attending and dominating a group of beginners should not be allowed to attend that group. Male or female.

You need to firmly tell him not to come to the classes anymore as they’re not suited to him, he’s derailing them, and they are not the place for his outreach work.

I do think it’s unfair (and a bit patronising to the women in your class, who presumably have capacity and agency about who they speak or listen to) to want somebody to “look into him” simply because you think it’s odd that a man would want to run an organisation supporting women and you find his way of talking weird: perhaps in his own culture speaking in a very plain and direct manner is the norm; perhaps he is being “explicit” because he and the women he is speaking with lack the English skills to use euphemisms well, or he’s actively ensuring he uses words which are clear to them and not confusing. I’d be less concerned that he’s speaking with these women in English and in clear earshot of everyone else, when it would be far easier to manipulate or mislead them under the radar by talking with them in their shared native language, knowing you and other class leaders would have no idea.

The whole point is for them to learn and practice english. Translation would wreck that.

this person is at the wrong english level and is preventing others from learning. They should therefore be require to mice up a group. How the leader of that group deals with some of the other stuff will be up to them.

The OP needs to go by what the council come back with.
And the council should exclude someone who is not in need of the service.
If they need to employ additional resources as they feel that the group needs extra support they need to do it the correct way rather than allowing a member of the public to push into a semi-official unveted role.

And if he " going into quite explicit details about the things men will do to them if they are not careful" he can be excluded on safeguarding grounds to avoid the risk sexual harrassment. I would guess that his speech would not be withim the bounds of polite conversation to a women in his home country.

The council need to take account if the culture differences which may leave some members normally women more vulnerable to exploitation by people who are given higher status by their social groups.

Plus the council need to take account of his other activity. They should not allow any member of the public target their group members in a recruitment drive for an unaffiliated organisation.

Agreed.

To be honest, I AM suspicious of most men - especially around younger women. I’m also suspicious of men who volunteer to work with kids, running cubs and scouts and that kind of thing. If their own kids belong, that’s different, but I’m always suspicious of their motives. Most men can’t stand children.

It’s sad, but I just don’t trust men. So many women over the years have told me horror stories about abuse, rape, etc. None of them went to the police (the vast majority of assaults go unreported, and even the ones that DO get reported rarely end in conviction). Even men I respected have often let me down or disappointed me.

OP there are guidelines for safeguarding for volunteers, charities, trustees etc. Safeguarding applies just as much for adults. If the council runs these groups I'd ask them about what safeguarding procedures should be followed and do everything in writing.

And we can NAMALT all we like, but if it walks like a duck...

It's simple really, he has no legitimate reason to be in the group, so he needs to leave.

It’s very clear you need to tell this man not to come. He sounds quite sinister and even if at heart he isn’t, he is inappropriate, domineering and derailing the group.

Don't doubt yourself. Find a way to make sure he doesn’t attend.

Who's actually in charge?

If it's council funded, there should be someone with overall responsibility you can speak to about this.

Trust your instinct . I think it is fair to say that it would have to be a particularly good man to do for no alternative motives , and would a man like that be one to dominate conversations and not let others speak.... I know my statement is completely judgemental but I haven't met many men who are selfless like that and the ones I have are very mature and considered in their approach to people. Fully appreciate my post is very subjective and judgemental but just from my experience I would be skeptical. Saying that the individual has come from a different culture and das seen different things do the want and need to help my be expected as part of their culture etc. just keep an eye out

Sorry for the typos on my phone

Sorry, I've just realised you've spoken to someone from the council.

Give them a set amount of time to get back to you and then start hounding them.