To be wary of a man who has set up a group to help women & girls

[Eastie77Returns]

I volunteer and help run a weekly Council led club that helps non English speakers develop conversational skills. There are usually 20 odd women each week and just 2-3 men. About a year ago we had a situation where one of the male attendees was persistently asking women out. This was dealt with and we have not had any issues since but it did heighten my awareness about men joining as a way to meet women.

More recently another man has begun attending regularly. We quickly assessed that he speaks English fluently and clearly doesn’t need to develop the basic language skills we provide so we signposted him to a class for advanced speakers but he continues to attend. This means that when we have group activities he completely dominates the conversation. Myself and the the other volunteers have to closely monitor any group he is in as we realised that the women he is grouped with do not get a chance to speak at all. He will speak at length about complex topics (derailing the activity they are meant to be engaging in) so we have to jump in and steer the group back.

The bigger issue (for me) is that he talks a lot about an organisation he has apparently set up to help girls attend school in his native country. He also does ‘outreach’ in our local area to help women from his home country upskill. There are several women from his home region in the club and I have overheard him in giving them advice about avoiding unscrupulous men and going into quite explicit details about the things men will do to them if they are not careful. I feel he is attending specifically as a way to access these women and the nature of his chat is quite worrying to me. I spoke to the Council member in charge of the club who said she would look into it. The other volunteer thinks I’m perhaps over-reacting but agrees there is an issue with him dominating the group conversations.

I’m now second guessing myself a bit.
I genuinely do not know if the fact I’ve become more sceptical of men as I’ve gotten older is unfairly colouring my perspective with respect to this guy. He is an otherwise pleasant person but I am very dubious about a man running an organisation specifically for women and girls which I acknowledge is unfair.

On the one hand I think it’s a shame that I’m so suspicious of men but on the other hand I think it’s perfectly justified!

Honestly it sounds a but like grooming to me and that he actually doesn't want these women to learn English an integrated. Is there a religious element to this? Could it be a prevent concern?

ComtesseDeSpair I understand what you are saying however there can be a powerplay in "buttonholing" on someone in a public place after a group social interaction.

The women would not entertain a strange man randomly walking up to her in public and being creepy. However its a little of the boiled frog problem by the time an individual woman in the group is "backed into a corner" by a creepy man she is locked into not creating a scene or causing the "nice" man public embarssment. And when what is being said can be open to interpertation the leaders when risk assessing need to take account of the most negitive outcome.

So as you said the leaders need to take the whole circumstance into account.

Sounds like a potential sexual exploitation & people trafficking gang has infiltrated the group. I'd be flagging this both to the police and the council ASAP. You'll probably find it easier to get through to the police than the council tbh.

https://www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/ms/human-trafficking/

You can contact the Modern Slavery Helpline confidentially on 08000 121 700.
If you want to remain anonymous, you can contact Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111.

You’re right that something feels off. He needs to be told in no uncertain terms that it’s not the group for him.

I have spoken to the person at the council from the Adult Learning Services team that runs the project. She had initially said he cannot be excluded because of his level of English. The groups does sometimes have advanced English speakers and this is actually encouraged because it helps the poorer speakers but they are usually female and do not try to dominate the group in the way this man does.

We did an extensive training course before being able to volunteer and I think the fact he is trying to discuss sexual matters with these women falls under a safeguarding concern and I asked the council person to address the issue from that angle. I just get the impression both the other volunteer thinks I'm being a bit harsh.

100%.

Even without all the approaching members of the class stuff, he shouldn't be in the class. His level is too high and he's taking a space from someone who might need it. Ask him to leave on that basis. But yes, I do think it's odd to attend a class you don't need to be at, and use it as a way to approach women.

I would not say you are being harsh.

Rather looking out for the group as a whole.
The problem is that if he is making the women feel uncomfortable this will spread within the comunity and women will choose to not go to the group or recomend it to others.

As for him steering the talk around to sex, he could be very aware that vulnerable women can easily be taken advantage of and he wants to educate them.
Or, he could be getting a perverse pleasure from talking to them about sex, preparing his groundwork, grooming them.
I really think your concerns should be taken more seriously by the others.

He is not a trained advisor on the payroll....to me he sounds odd.

Unfortunately councils and people working in this area can allow their good intentions and “inclusivity” cloud their judgement. They refuse to see power imbalances, think men and women should always be treated the same.

But we know from Oxfam and Haiti that predatory men take advantage of situations where they can access vulnerable women and will often go to great lengths to maintain that access.

Absolutely this. He shouldn’t be allowed to attend a class when he is a much higher level. This is totally inappropriate for a language class. You need to be much firmer.

I wouldn't want to generalise but in this case it sounds as though this guy is taking advantage of the fact that lots of women attend and is stopping them getting the full benefit and possibly making them uncomfortable. I hope you can find a way to stop him coming.

this! Especially as it’s council run. Im surprised their alarm bells aren’t clanging

id suggest putting your concerns in writing so there’s an audit trail. Doesn’t have to be anything massively formal, just raising your concerns but making it clear you feel he doesn’t belong in the group because his language skills are too advanced & you’re worried about the ‘advice’ he’s giving women

Trust your gut. In summary you have a man who has no need to attend the group choosing to attend the group which allows him access to vulnerable women, and instigating inappropriate conversations with them. This is absolutely a safeguarding matter. I’d be watching him like a hawk, intervening whenever a conversation is inappropriate and telling him so and keeping clear records.

Edited to add I’d also write your concerns in a letter and say you want a written acknowledgment of your concerns so there’s a paper trail of you raising them.

He should not be in the group, his language level is too high and so it is not benefiting him to be there, it is also hindering the progress of the other learners. That alone is a reason to tell - not ask - him to leave.

That he continues to come when it does not help his language learning makes it clear he has other reasons for coming, and like you, OP, I would be suspicious. He’s not there for good reasons, he’s either scouting to make contact with vulnerable women or getting cheap thrills through engaging in inappropriate conversations.

Time the group leader punted him out. It’s long overdue.

Sounds like he wants to control these women from his native country as if they were still living there. He has no intention of doing any learning.

This.

Get him gone.

He’s behaving oddly, that’s why you’re reasonably wary.

he needs to be told to leave this group because he’s inhibiting people’s learning.

Already the obligatory 'trust your gut' . Won't be long before 'red flags all over him' comes along.

OP, you must put in writing to the Trustees that he is discussing sexual matters with these women. I'm involved with a charity and there should be clear guidelines on safeguarding within your organisation. If needs be, quote from the Charity Commission website. It's rather odd that the other volunteers don't find his behaviour concerning. I would have thought dominating the class alone would annoy them let alone the rest of it. Are these volunteers perhaps older women? Either way, please put your concerns in writing and set a timeline for a response.

@Eastie77Returns
Get the police involved now because the woke local council won't do anything until half the group have been trafficked to brothels or similar. A similar scenario happened near where I live where gangs deliberately targeted groups for vulnerable people.

Inclusivity is definitely the watchword of this council. I have already raised my concerns in the monthly Volunteers call and someone from Adult Learning Services reminded me that the conversation group is ‘open to all’ and we cannot exclude people without good reason. It’s very frustrating because the concerns I described would definitely merit investigation at the very least but I think they are afraid of being accused of discriminatory behaviour and not understanding this man’s cultural background. However I am certain that in his own country it would be considered deeply inappropriate for a man to discuss sexual matters with women so this behaviour is not culturally driven.

To answer some other points, I don’t think he is interested in people trafficking or slavery (I guess you already know though).

I will put something formally in writing as suggested.

You have 2 other men in the group could you ask them plus 2 women to do a small presentation for the council meeting on the differences in social interactions between the UK and their home country.

Do it as a fact finding project to help adjust the classes and have multiple other questions which may make the class more attractive without bringing up offending subjects
Eg
Jokes, music, respect for age/family, groups [(edit) & ] mix sex taboos, festivals and religious events, keeping pets etc