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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask when your ND and NT children got fully ready for school? ***title edited by MNHQ at OP's request***

63 replies

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 10:34

I'm feeling like my dcs should be doing more for themselves. I realise all children are different, have different capabilities and develop at different rates. Maybe these things are normal, and I am expecting too much, or are they running rings around dh, and I? I feel like it is the latter.

At what age did your dc get up with an alarm clock, get their school uniform on, and come down for breakfast? How much involvement did you have?

When I was 8, I did it all, but I am NT, so I understand it was alot easier for me, and those were different times. I grew up with a depressed dm who laid in bed every morning. This meant I grew up quicker, brought her a cup of tea before school from 8 years old, other people would take me to school, or I would walk with my sibling etc. I didn't eat breakfast half of the time, nobody was there to ensure I did. Due to this, it is very important to me, that I am there fully for my dcs in the morning. I love being there for them, this isn't the issue whatsoever.

Dc1 has just turned 8, and the other is 5. The 8 year old is ND with autism and ADHD; he struggles with anxiety which can be challenging. He is very intelligent and academically where he should be at school, if not a head in some areas. He is an absolute whizz on computers to the point he is better than some adults. He is full of facts and can tell you to the finer detail about them on repeat. He is a lovely kid, polite and sensible. The thing I am struggling with is getting him to follow instructions at home without having an autistic melt down. If he doesn't want to do things, or isn't interested in something he will outright refuse to do it, or take an eternity to carry it out, despite being more than capable of the action I am asking him to do. He hates to follow instructions, it doesn't matter how early we get up, it just takes such a long time. He will make it so difficult to the point time runs out and I have no choice but to do it for him. Then he will complain through this, and want feelings reaffirmed, "I love you Mum, do you love me, I'm stupid etc."

I have a visual timetable for mornings, dc1 understands this well, and knows he needs to go to the toilet, brush his teeth, dress his bottom half, (I do his tops), as he has sensitivities with this so I have to put them on like the speed of light. Then I send him downstairs to get a smoothie out of the fridge and watch some tv (he enjoys this part, and likes the independence because it is something he 'wants' to do), while I then get the 5 year old ready. This is all I expect of dc1, he did it a couple of times and I was over the moon thinking finally, but now we are back to square 1. He is procrastinating and wandering. He'll either want a long cuddle or faff around to the point I can't leave him and have to supervise instructing him to do X,Y, and Z. He then gets upset because he doesn't like being told what to do and when to do it; it has to be on his terms.

Now my 5 year old is copying and saying he can't do it in regards to getting ready; he was very keen and independent wanting to do these things from 2. However, now he is copying dc1. Mornings are stressful, and I don't think I can go on this way.

5 year old is NT, takes ages to get up, I take him to the bathroom make sure he goes to the toilet, I then brush his teeth, get him fully dressed, bring him downstairs. I then make their breakfasts, and I have to remind them constantly to eat them. I tell them they need to hurry and finish breakfast. They ignore me, then say they're eating it. Then I will say shoes on, and they both ignore me. I end up raising my voice and saying, "Come on, dcs, we're going to be late for school." Then 8 year old will hit himself in the face say it's his fault, and be on the verge of a melt down. Sometime he'll tell me he hates me too, just because I'm trying to get them to school on time. I even have to put their shoes on, because they'll complain. Dc2 is a little more willing to help sometimes. It is exhausting, and it feels like they should be a bit more independent by now. They'll do their coats at least. At this point we're running out of the door, and I have to repeatedly tell my 8 yr old that I love him, that he isn't stupid and to stop raising his fists to his face. The younger one is easier this way, and I try to give him attention as well so that he isn't left out, then then dc1 one tells me I love him better, despite him getting more attention on the whole, because he is so demanding and attention seeking. Often we are walking down the street with dc1 telling me he hates me, or hates himself. I feel like an utterly useless Mother.

Does anybody have experience of this? I'm drained by it, and exhausted before we even get out of the door. I'm not shouty, but do raise my voice as a last resort (more a firmer tone), but not shouting or anything like that. I honestly don't know what on earth more I can do.

I do want to add that some days are better than others (but most are like the above).

Edited to say: I am sorry this is so long. I understand if nobody reads it all.

OP posts:
Catza · 12/03/2025 12:09

I have autism and while I was able to get dressed independently from a very young age, I think my mum was only able to stop physically waking me up when I was about 16. I had my own alarm but I really struggled to get out of bed so she always used to come in, open the windows, bring me a glass of juice or a cup of tea. Then come in again in 20 minutes to make sure I was actually up (in was not unusual for me to actually fall asleep with a cup of tea in my hand). I also have vivid memories of falling sleep in the toilet at primary age. Waking up was a huge issue. Everything else - not so much.

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 12:17

Catza · 12/03/2025 12:09

I have autism and while I was able to get dressed independently from a very young age, I think my mum was only able to stop physically waking me up when I was about 16. I had my own alarm but I really struggled to get out of bed so she always used to come in, open the windows, bring me a glass of juice or a cup of tea. Then come in again in 20 minutes to make sure I was actually up (in was not unusual for me to actually fall asleep with a cup of tea in my hand). I also have vivid memories of falling sleep in the toilet at primary age. Waking up was a huge issue. Everything else - not so much.

Aww thank you for sharing this. It is lovely to hear from somebody who has been through this as a child. May I ask if there is anything that you feel your Mum could have done to further help you? Sny advice would be much appreciated. Dc1 gets up with his alarm clock well, it is the rest we are struggling with, because he will act like it is the weekend.

OP posts:
Maladie · 12/03/2025 12:19

It sounds like your DC1 is barely coping.

Our morning routine has had to get simpler and simpler as mental health breakdown has reduced the capacity of my now-16-year-old.

On bad days I try get food into him first - cereal or even just milk in his bedroom. Warm milk even. Once this is done he is better able to do stuff. It sounds counter-intuitive but I wonder if a slower start and food before tasks might be easier on you both. Maybe start with sorting your younger one out and let DC1 "thaw out" first. For now I would concentrate on getting him out of the door as gently as possible so he is not hitting himself - maybe the marker of success should be you not having to tell him fists down, rather than him putting his own top on etc.

Capacity reduces to almost zero when you're on the ragged edge. Find a way to bring him back from the brink of meltdown and you might find some of the hard stuff stops being hard for him. It's a bit of a leap of faith but if he is capable of putting a top on at the weekend, or at school, then maybe the problem is the overwhelm rather than the skill.

Babyboomtastic · 12/03/2025 12:23

5 (complicated!) and 7 (probably ADHD but undiagnosed).

We prompt everything.. Multiple times. The younger one needs help due to disabilities (though could do more...) the eldest needs constant prompting. She'll eventually (after many prompts) get dressed but often clothes are in the wrong order, items forgotten, back to front etc and she won't notice. She'll put trainers on with school uniform and school shoes for PE days. Often tears over hair brushing, teeth brushing, washing and we are frazzled by the time we leave.

Catza · 12/03/2025 12:28

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 12:17

Aww thank you for sharing this. It is lovely to hear from somebody who has been through this as a child. May I ask if there is anything that you feel your Mum could have done to further help you? Sny advice would be much appreciated. Dc1 gets up with his alarm clock well, it is the rest we are struggling with, because he will act like it is the weekend.

I honestly don't know if there is anything else my mum could have done. One thing I do though is I get up significantly earlier than I need to - this is my strategy as an adult which allows me to be ready when I need to be ready. I still need my mornings to be reeeeealy slow (so yes, I treat them as a weekend because I have to!). I can technically be up and out in 15 min but I feel stressed, rushed, overwhelmed and it takes me whole day to recover from this experience. I don't start work till 9am and I work from home so it's literally 12 steps between my bedroom and my office. But! I wake up at 6.30. This allows me 30 min to read a book in bed with a cup of coffee. I then go downstairs in my PJs and potter around a bit. I may or may not have breakfast or a second cup of coffee, play with the dog a bit, do a bit of mindless tidying up or stare out of the window a bit. By about 8am I am just about ready to brush my teeth. I then go back to the bedroom where I may get distracted for a bit before I actually get dressed. I am finally in front of my laptop at 8.45 ready for work.
Now, I am not suggesting the entire household is up at 4am to allow your son a bit more time to get himself together but I would seriously consider that making time to allow his natural rhythm may be more beneficial and less stressful than trying to change what he does to fit the time available.

AllTheChaos · 12/03/2025 12:30

DD is 11, AuDhD, and still needs some assistance. Mostly just, like pp, yelling ‘clothes!’, ‘teeth’, ‘shoes!’ Etc. sometimes she wakes up in time, sometimes she needs waking. She couldn’t get her own breakfast as is very clumsy (possible dyspraxia but still awaiting assessment) and can’t be left to wield sharp knives alone. If I leave bread cut she will get her own toast, but will then dump a whole jar of jam on top unless I stop her. So, oversight and reminders rather than doing it for her if that makes sense?

AllTheChaos · 12/03/2025 12:33

Catza · 12/03/2025 12:09

I have autism and while I was able to get dressed independently from a very young age, I think my mum was only able to stop physically waking me up when I was about 16. I had my own alarm but I really struggled to get out of bed so she always used to come in, open the windows, bring me a glass of juice or a cup of tea. Then come in again in 20 minutes to make sure I was actually up (in was not unusual for me to actually fall asleep with a cup of tea in my hand). I also have vivid memories of falling sleep in the toilet at primary age. Waking up was a huge issue. Everything else - not so much.

I am still like this! I give myself a long start in the morning as it’s the only way. I do the same for Dd too, she either wakes early naturally or I wake her early, otherwise it all goes to pot very quickly.

Catza · 12/03/2025 12:41

@LiveinHarmony another thing I forgot to mention is that I actually could not tolerate any form of talking in the morning, or much in a way of sound and light. So my mum didn't have to keep completely silent but everything had to be at a much reduced volume, nothing that would require a response from me. So maybe there is also a sensory component to consider with your son where it's not necessarily requests that he is finding difficult but having to process stimuli and "generate" an appropriate response.

rosiebl · 12/03/2025 12:43

OP I would change the order of your mornings and put the thing your ND DC wants to do at the very end of all of the other tasks. I did this with my DC and it changed the dial entirely. I told him why I was doing it and what my expectations were and what the reward was for following the routine (in your case this is TV and smoothie). I would get him to do everything including shoes and then he gets the reward of smoothie and tv when breakfast is eaten, he's dressed, teeth are brushed and toilet is done. Write it down for him so he can clearly see the steps.

Squidgemoon · 12/03/2025 12:47

My DS9 is 100% NT but is not good at independence or getting ready in the mornings! I don’t have much advice OP but I don’t think it’s all down to ND either … DS needs a hell of a lot of prompting, I don’t think left to his own devices he would EVER brush his teeth …

Laffydaffy · 12/03/2025 12:50

If it helps, I will share the routine that has finally worked for us.

Both kids (DD Adhd and DS Adhd and autism) take medication for school.

Night before, bags packed, showered and DS dresses for the next day. DD wears PJs. We don't have a uniform, so DS wears comfy clothes that works as PJs anyway - jumper and trackpants. DD enjoys picking out her clothes (night before) so no problems there.

We always wake them an hour before they have to go on the bus. Straight to breakfast for whatever they will eat, which changes regularly. Toast, cereal, yoghurt or leftovers. The rule is, they must eat something. Medication, then teeth, face washed and jackets/shoes on and out the door. We leave no time to dilly-dally. Just a set routine that we stick to. We have to watch DS and remind him of each step, but it works. Has taken years.

What also helped when they were younger was giving them their medication first thing with breakfast, which would start working before they were out the door. That was noice.

What we have done is observed what works and what distracts. What works is getting everything ready the night before, including shoes and jackets. What does not work is giving them extra time for devices or TV, or cooking breakfast. Too much stress and distraction. Also, getting DS ready the night before has halved the madness. He can roll out of bed even half an hour before the bus now, and last year that was unthinkable.

And a good night's sleep.

suitcaseofdreams · 12/03/2025 12:57

Mine are teenagers. One is diagnosed autistic, the other not but has many traits and has severe school based anxiety. Neither are able to completely independently get up, ready and out in a morning. Autistic one is good with dressing and teeth but can't make own breakfast without chucking cereal all over the floor and spilling milk all over the table and still needs me to do up his shoelaces. He does wake easily and goes from asleep to fully alert very quickly and can be up and out (with help and reminders) in 30-40 mins so he's generally pretty easy.
Anxious one needs to be woken two hours before he needs to leave to house, takes a long time to 'come round', then needs frequent reminders to come and eat breakfast (which I need to get ready for him). Then he needs to be dressed by me (not because he can't do it but because his anxiety is too high) and it takes lots of persuasion and support to get him into his trainers (again, done up by me) and out of the door and into the car. At weekends and during holidays he is fully independent, makes his own breakfast and lunch, bakes cakes for us all, has no problems with choosing his own clothes and getting dressed etc - he simply cannot cope with school and as a result becomes almost unable to function at all independently on a school morning.

I'd be looking at how happy DC1 is in school...and I mean genuinely happy, not just masking and appearing fine. It could well be that lots of the defiance and demand avoidance is because he is anxious and scared about school? (especially if weekends are easier/better) If this is the case then making some changes at school might help the morning routine at home (my mornings were more like yours when autistic one was in mainstream primary and hating it) If there are demand avoidant traits (even if not full PDA) then the techniques and strategies recommended on the PDA Society website might help (essentially removing perceived demands, making it into a game, suggesting rather than instructing etc)

VeggPatch · 12/03/2025 13:02

His class teacher has told him to stop biting his sleeve as he is in year 3, not reception

I'm not surprised he doesn't want to go in then. What an unhelpful way to deal with an AuDHD child. Have a look for chewy necklaces - you can get ones shaped like lego bricks etc.

I suspect you might get less difficult behaviour in the mornings if his class teacher wasn't shaming him for things he can't help.

Aside from that, tweaks I might make to your morning routine would be

  • Get DC2 up first since he takes longer - can he have a visual timetable to dress himself while you help DC1? If he is NT then a star chart or marble jar might work well for doing everything on the visual timetable himself.
  • No screens in the morning - we have noticed SUCH a difference in DD (also AuDHD) since we had a screen ban in the morning. As soon as she's on a screen she doesn't process boring instructions like "put your shoes on."
  • Timer so they can see when breakfast finishes, alarm or Alexa set for shoes time.
  • Make it a race to get shoes on - then you suddenly remember you need to "find your keys" so the boys win the race - novelty and playfulness work really well.

It is difficult. DD is 10 and I still physically dress her most mornings.

Jade520 · 12/03/2025 13:41

I agree with PP, chewing his sleeve will be a sensory thing that probably calms him - to put him down over it is pretty unforgiveable. A gentle reminder maybe but putting him down like that is horrid. No wonder he feel stressed and doesn't want to go to school. Have a word with the teacher. I would guess a lot of your problems are actually down to him not going to school and I'd be very concerned that he could become a school refuser in the future. More needs to be done to understand and support him at school even if he appears 'fine' IMO.

I also agree with trying to make everything a game or for a small reward. Tell him to see if he can put his trousers on before you count to ten. Maybe get him to do a magic trick (I bet you can't do some magic and get those trousers on before I get back!) or be silly, tell him that his trousers are actually your trousers and you're going to wear them today so he'd better not put them on himself. Be fun and animated. Any time he does it be amazed or say oh my goodness I can't believe you're wearing my trousers. It's a bit of trial and error often to see what he thinks is fun/funny. You might find he's much better at doing things you tell him not to do! But making it into a really fun game often worked with mine. These things also work just as well with NT kids too!

I would say if he wants tv with his smoothie then he needs to be ready on time and the quicker he's ready the more time he'll have. Use his smoothie/tv time as a reward. If he's not ready then it'll be smoothie in the car and unfortunately no time for tv. I also wouldn't ask him too many questions in the morning - have you done this, have you done that, as it's likely to be overwhelming.

If he's really into computers has he got into programming at all? Check out Scratch and see if he'd enjoy it. Mine started there, then moved on to python and then C# and now he has an apprenticeship as a software engineer. Programming makes more sense to him (ASD) than people!

Boeufsurletoit · 12/03/2025 13:50

NT (or less ND at any rate) child has got himself ready since he was 5/6 I think, with very little input from me, although I've always got up with him and when he goes through phases of preferring not to be woken by an alarm I check he's up. Sometimes I take him breakfast in bed if he looks tired! Never had any problems though - he just doesn't find that aspect of life hard. ND child is a completely different story and will sometimes surprise me but generally has a very difficult time getting ready still at twice that age.

Lolypoly14 · 12/03/2025 14:07

My ND daughter is 19, and to be honest, still needs a bit of promoting now.

She’ll get out of the shower and quite often will end up wrapped in a towel sat on her bed doom scrolling on her phone, or will have got distracted by something completely random in her room and needs prompting to get back on track.

She’s set a load of alarms on her phone to prompt her to take her medication, her bus is in 10 minutes, she should have left the house by now, etc. When she was younger we had a white board in her room and a load of smiley face stickers that she put onto the board whenever she’d completed a task.

As far as I remember, she could physically dress herself by the time she started school, but I’d need to lay her clothes out for her, in the order she needed to put them on. As she got older, she got into a routine of laying them out herself.

DD used to chew a lot, we bought some chewy, rubbery necklace things that she could wear around her neck rather than chewing clothes.

44PumpLane · 12/03/2025 14:22

8yo twin girls, one AuDHD, one NT.

I wake both at 7.30 and we give them breakfast, then badger both to brush their teeth and badger them both to put on the clothes we have laid out for them.

My NT child gets dressed when asked, my AuDHD needs to be constantly promoted or she gets distracted by everything.

I believe I've made a rod for my own back in that they have always got changed downstairs, but now we are at the age where they probably need to be getting changed upstairs and I don't know how to change the routine! Not very helpful for you I know!

Toomanyusernamestochoose · 12/03/2025 14:31

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 12:08

My two don't seem that hungry in the morning, they take ages to eat, and need constant reminders. Maybe they're eating too much the day before, I have no idea! They do great with their lunches, and dinners, and are good eaters, so this isn't the problem. Dc1 is more of an early riser, dc2 later.

Dc2 I think would rather a later breakfast, and takes ages to come around (he doesn't sleep well as he has enlarged tonsils and adenoids) which I expect is adding to the behavioural issues we're having with him. Dc1 is too wound up about going to school, and trying to get computer time to look at multiple pc operating systems (which is his current obsession).
I don't know what to do! I feel really deflated, and any advice would be gratefully appreciated from anybody who has both ND and NT kids, and how ypu balance things.

Edited

Sorry things are so difficult for you. PP have given you some great advice.
I think our easy mornings are more good luck than good parenting - we have challenges over food at other times of the day and over other things in general. Banning screens in the morning works for us as they would achieve nothing if they had one but I am not dealing with a ND child so completely get your challenges are different

AnxiousAnnie1984 · 12/03/2025 14:43

I’m in the same boat op. ND DS(9) and NT DS(4).
youngest just started school (we’re not in the UK).

We saw a big difference in terms of morning meltdowns since he started sleeping better on melatonin (prescribed by child neuropsychiatrist , 0,2 mg every night two hours before he is supposed to sleep. This is the lowest dosage, we are in NL where melatonin is available otc but in ridiculously high dosages while the right dosage and timing are crucial!) He now sleeps between 20:00-20:30 every night, while before he would sleep closer tot 22:00-2300. We were all going mad after two years of this!

I also think not being too hard on yourself will help. The stress only adds to the ND challenges. We have a thing where he can cross offthe tasks in the morning but it he’s not feeling well it won’t help. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I think lack of sleep =mental block in the morning so maybe evaluate his sleep pattern first.

Good luck op! You can DM me if you like

CeriseKoala · 12/03/2025 14:51

My ASD daughter has done it herself for honestly as long as I remember. She's extremely routine driven and also HATES anyone helping her. So clothes were put out ready the night before, even at like 4/5. I also picked easy on uniform to help her,
so polo shirts, no laces. she's always had her own alarm and got up the same time. She isn't up and raring to go but she's sets her alarm early enough to give herself the time she needs. Then has second and third alarms when she needs to get up/go downstairs/leave etc. She struggles if there's an ad hoc difference to her day (like if we had the dentist first thing or something) but she's now 12 and I literally just check she's up (mainly for myself) then keep out of the way.

AnxiousAnnie1984 · 12/03/2025 14:53

AnxiousAnnie1984 · 12/03/2025 14:43

I’m in the same boat op. ND DS(9) and NT DS(4).
youngest just started school (we’re not in the UK).

We saw a big difference in terms of morning meltdowns since he started sleeping better on melatonin (prescribed by child neuropsychiatrist , 0,2 mg every night two hours before he is supposed to sleep. This is the lowest dosage, we are in NL where melatonin is available otc but in ridiculously high dosages while the right dosage and timing are crucial!) He now sleeps between 20:00-20:30 every night, while before he would sleep closer tot 22:00-2300. We were all going mad after two years of this!

I also think not being too hard on yourself will help. The stress only adds to the ND challenges. We have a thing where he can cross offthe tasks in the morning but it he’s not feeling well it won’t help. 🤷🏻‍♀️ I think lack of sleep =mental block in the morning so maybe evaluate his sleep pattern first.

Good luck op! You can DM me if you like

i wanted to add this link. https://images.app.goo.gl/oJLtuFKAE5MPCxcz6

https://images.app.goo.gl/oJLtuFKAE5MPCxcz6

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 14:56

Catza · 12/03/2025 12:41

@LiveinHarmony another thing I forgot to mention is that I actually could not tolerate any form of talking in the morning, or much in a way of sound and light. So my mum didn't have to keep completely silent but everything had to be at a much reduced volume, nothing that would require a response from me. So maybe there is also a sensory component to consider with your son where it's not necessarily requests that he is finding difficult but having to process stimuli and "generate" an appropriate response.

Thank you so much, your advice has been really helpful. Everything you have said resonates with my situation. The not talking in the morning is such good advice as he is distracted, and he hates me asking him questions, eg., "What do you want for breakfast?" It takes ages to grab his attention, I'll often have to say a random word like, "Minecraft" to break his focus, as he won't answer to his name. He is laid back about some things, so I now know to just put the food infront of him. I think he prefers small decisions made for him, when he is already anxious about his school day that lies ahead.
My son hates buttons, so I have cut those off his polo shirt which is helping; he still hates the uniform because it is associated with school. I am definately going to set his alarm clock for a bit earlier as you suggested. I have high hopes this extra time will help, because the rushing is awful. I think if he feels he has more time to watch his programs (he is obsessed with Windows operating systems dating back to 1995) and it really helps him relax. I'm not going to tell him I'm going to change his alarm time, I'll just do it, then take things slower, and hopefully, he will be surprised at how much extra time he has. Thank you again x

OP posts:
Awumminnscotland · 12/03/2025 14:57

Dd is 9, 10 this year, aspergers type autism. In last few months I'm seeing a little bit more of an insight in her that she's aware of what she needs to do to be ready. For example, she'll know she needs shoes on and hair brushed but there is absolutely no consistency in actually doing those things. I will prompt saying shoes then hair and she'll say I know I know then I'll find her twirling around in the hall.
This is all a huge improvement. She does get there but needs supervision and prompting. Until now I've had to be right beside her leading her through each action..but its still am absolute chore...left sock, no don't examine your feet, right sock, put the book down, why have you taken off your cardigan? Why are you dancing now? We need to leave, put your shoes back on, stop rolling on the floor, you've already examined the contents of your 2 pencil cases put them back in the bag...
Some days now she'll appear dressed, packing her bag and wants to help with breakfast then next day it's like her brain fell out again.
We've tried every timer and visual timetable and now and next chart known to man. All work for a short time while it's a novelty.
The only thing that works is close connection, prompting, notice when things go well and praise but not overly, emphasise the consequence of staying on track eg NOW you can dance for 10 mins or go choose your favourite pencils to take or play or whatever. I just try and make it as easy for her to succeed as possible but it will still not be a smooth progression.
I don't think there's a one size fits all you just really need the time to be there for them.

Octavia64 · 12/03/2025 14:59

About 10 or 11

This then lasted for a few years and then the independence vanished a bit during teen years as they struggled to wake up.

One ASD one AuDHD

We left the house at the same time and had a morning routine that did not change from when they were about 5. Reminders were needed regularly.

LiveinHarmony · 12/03/2025 15:01

Squidgemoon · 12/03/2025 12:47

My DS9 is 100% NT but is not good at independence or getting ready in the mornings! I don’t have much advice OP but I don’t think it’s all down to ND either … DS needs a hell of a lot of prompting, I don’t think left to his own devices he would EVER brush his teeth …

Haha, that's interesting to hear. I do suspect dc1 has ND and a laid back ha hem laziness in the mix as well!

OP posts: