To think our quality of life can’t keep going up forever?

[Wildflowers99]

I saw a post on a thread which said if you have 3 children (for example) you NEED 4 bedrooms, because children sharing a room is unacceptable in terms of their quality of life. And another saying being able to eat things like peppers out of season is essentially a right, and therefore they should have a price cap.

It got me thinking because what we expect as a basic quality of life seems very very different to even 50 years ago. But the problem is with the advent of climate change, cost of living, ageing population and so on, is it realistic for expectations to keep going up? Have we now reached a point where our quality of life will have to plateau or even reverse a bit because the economy and world cannot support what we have come to expect?

Hope that makes sense, I’m a bit zombified after a 5am start with my toddler…

You can avoid this sort of worry if you do not allow yourself to believe all this nonsense. A right to eat veggies out of season? If you are born and bred in a country, chances are home grown will do you more good.

It made me think of the illegal immigrant being granted access to stay in UK because his son doesn't like the chicken nuggets sold in his own country.

I agree with you OP.
I have to bite my tongue when speaking to adult children of friends. They moan about how hard it is to save for a deposit but then insist on holidays, weekends away, changing phones and new clothes etc. When their Mum's say anything about saving the answer is always "they have to have a life"
We have all grown to expect this lifestyle and our (or at least my) children were never aware that we had to save or do without to fund the lifestyle they had. This means that what they accept as a basic standard of living is pretty hard to improve on in this economic climate and so something has to give

I don't think quality of life is remotely going up. I see lots of people struggling to make their rent, lots of people struggling to pay their heating bills....

You are correct. Industrialisation has enabled humanity to break free from the tramlines historically imposed on us by the natural world (e.g. only eating foods that are available or can be stored at the appropriate time of year). The cost of this is unsustainability and destruction. Industrial agriculture and mass consumerism in the name of fake freedom is wrecking ecosystems around the world, consuming the planet's resources and causing potentially catastrophic climate change (in the worst case scenarios). It is a law of mathematics that you cannot have linear systems of consumption on a planet with finite resources, so if we continue with business as usual in the industrialised nations, we are heading for societal collapse.

The world over, all the vast majority of people want is a decent home, a way to pay the bills, decent schools, healthcare, leisure time and a bit to spend on it. To feel reasonably safe out and about and to know they will be looked after in their old age. Is this really so much to ask?

Re seasonal fruit, to me that's another quality-of-life thing we've lost. I can remember the thrill of coming home to the smell of strawberries when they were in season or having asparagus just a couple of Fridays a year when it was at the market. Young people shouldn't look at that and think it was sad - it was joyful!

Home grown might be better, I have an allotment and don't use pesticides or herbicides, and try to minimise tilling. Unfortunately over the last few years, our changing climate means locked in weather patterns consisting of weeks/months of wet or dry have been wrecking my allotment's productivity. It is much harder now to get anything remotely resembling a decent harvest compared to a decade ago especially when I have to cultivate the allotment around a full time job.

Locked in weather patterns:

My family had a house in the 70s. Central heating, automatic washing machine, the decor would make your eyeballs hurt though and there was one inside loo, no shower. Perfectly fine to live in though.

My last rental had no central heating or double glazing

we didn’t move out that long ago

The world over, the vast majority of people don't have this, so yes it is too much to ask, but not too much to aspire to.

The quality of life has been going down in the UK and some other countries for over 20 years. In some ways, it has gone down in the last 50 years.
There's been a lot of bread and circuses distraction of the population with credit cards to spend on all sorts of things that don't improve QOL at all. In fact, a lot of them make many people more miserable (see current rates of mental health problems compared to even 5, never mind 20 or 50 years ago).

I'm not in the UK and have never lived in a house with central heating or double glazing - they are the exception here rather than the rule. And yes, it gets cold in winter. We generally heat the rooms we are using and the bedrooms are cold. We cope.

My god this thread is so frustrating.

Ok. Over time, things that were previously luxuries become so cheap and ubiquitous that they are now considered necessities, especially by the young. This is completely to be expected in a normal society and has happened throughout history - your tea, pepper, glass windows and running water would all have been seen as unimaginable decadence at one point.

Meanwhile, the basics of life - housing and education - are becoming increasingly difficult to obtain. Inequality is spiralling, the middle are getting poorer, and there is a serious upswing in proper, absolute poverty. I'm talking about people going hungry, especially children, with nearly one in 20 people now skipping entire days of eating due to money. And this is absolutely not inevitable, it's a choice. We are richer than we've ever been.

It's completely wild to me to see so many older people focussing on the former issue, begrudging the young any slice of any progress, and completely ignoring the latter. I mean seriously, what's wrong with you? Can you really genuinely not figure this stuff out? Can you really not see where it's going? Honestly if our society goes under it's because it deserves to. It's insane.

I think we nearly had that in the late 20th century, then successive governments went in the wrong direction, giving people things they hadn't asked for, like house price inflation.

I think it's asking a very great deal. All these things don't happen by magic.
One cannot just assume that some friendly power will deliver all this as a kind of Deliveroo.

Sardines on toast are delicious; I don't care if they are in oil or tomato sauce. Completely ignoring the point.

@dhfkabduuori this is not new. When I had my only child, 25 years ago, it was because I felt I had secured financial stability. I was 44. A second child didn't happen. But house is a misnomer. We bought the house we live in now pre-DC, and it still works for us. We plan to move in the next year or so to a new location, probably a smaller house, that will be closer to family/friends. It will be a costly move, and mean losing our proximity to our excellent hospital to be in catchment for one consistently rated the worst in the UK.

"so, the super rich are buying up all the assets and despoiling the planet, and your children and grandchildren will be facing destitution. Government seems unwilling to act, what are you going to do?"

"I'm going to complain about young people buying gel nails"

It is when people refuse to pay the necessary taxes to fund it.

Things will evolve though. Pensions haven't changed enough to adapt to changes in life expectancy. When they were devised, on average people lived a handful of years on them. Now people expect to live in comfortable retirement for 40 years, with their every need taken care of at no cost. They gripe and even the idea of contributing their own wealth towards their upkeep.

We are way out of synch with reality.

In future it will be a case of saving for retirement, continuing to work, or being desperately poor. But we've all gladly embraced those additional years of life- we just haven't embraced the financial consequences yet.

I will carry on working as long as I am able. I've never relished the idea of an extended period of funded idleness.

It is when people refuse to pay the necessary taxes to fund it

Since when were taxes optional?

I see people stressed because of the cost of housing, food, and childcare (which they need to pay for housing and food).

I don't think these are unreasonable expectations, especially when someone is working full time.

A few generations ago you could buy a house and raise a family on one working class income.

A deposit today is many times more relative to income than it would have been for you.

Their phone is a drop in the ocean, and it's something they use every day- not a dream that will take a decade to come true.

Since governments are elected by the majority and the electorate have refused to vote in governments who propose significant tax hikes.

Telegraph reported yesterday that ‘Britain (is) ‘no longer a rich country’ after living standards plunge’ and that parts of the UK are ‘are now worse off than the poorest regions of Slovenia and Lithuania’.

No doubt this will please the many misers on this thread that feel people today should suffer and go backwards in living standards. Looks like more and more families will be in this boat, squeezed into small poor quality housing and making ends meet. But it’s fine, as people had to do that 50 years ago according to some folk.

Archived version of the article:
https://archive.is/jLAEM

I am not saying that people don't need phones. I am saying that the lifestyle we have brought our children up to recognise as the minimum acceptable standard, is very difficult to improve on in today's economic climate.
I take responsibility for that. I was tried to give my children the best childhood I could afford but I failed to show them the cost of that lifestyle. They don't realise all the things we went without to afford that life.
Yes, we all need phones, they don't have to be replaced every year or two. But growing up all the parents in my friendship group always upgraded their children's phones when the contract ended. That's normal for them. It is very difficult, therefore, to see anything other than regular expensive upgrades as normal.
We all live in the times we live in. Looking back and saying how much cheaper/ easier things used to be doesn't change the challenges we all face. A deposit for a house is just as many times average income for me as it is for you.