This UPF thing is irritating me

[SnowMoss]

I've never eaten much UPF, but it is getting harder and harder to avoid it. I don't go the whole 9 yards or anything, but try to keep myself informed and do my best to eat a healthy balanced diet.

Made a good effort to keep an eye on upf's, so for the past year have been sourcing good poultry, fish, and eating it with vegetables, etc. But I am bored out of my mind at this point! Just so fucking bored.

Then I hear about seed oils, so now even the small things that I added, such as mayo, gnocchi, the occasional flatbread (contains only sunflower oil, salt, wheat) are seen as a UPF too, due to the inclusion of sunflower or rapeseed oil. I am happy with and have the time to cook from scratch, but avoiding oils has basically taken a good whack at my time.
It's one thing trying to get people to eat a good diet, with veg and fruit and less processed meats, which will benefit their health, weight and wellbeing, but I am honest to god fed up of eating meat and a pile of veg, even if my own sauces and seasonings suffice.
And no, nothing substitutes for mayo! And no, I really don't want to make my own! I will make my own pesto, coleslaw, stuff like that, but I am bone bloody weary of avoidance.

Surely just being mindful is enough? I get that the food industry is an unregulated cesspit right now, but I am beginning to wonder just how awful it is, in moderation, to eat a some.
Sadly if I google any kind of additive or seed oil, I get lists of 'side effects' such as bloating, calcium loss and so on, it is so depressing.

If you are mindful of UPF's have you found a good balance?

I mostly cook from scratch with fruit and veg and try to avoid processed food where I can.

Aside from that I don't worry about it. I've seen some really weird obsessive posts on here about it, people getting themselves in knots and worrying about brands of tins of tomatoes and now even mayonnaise.

I don't think any of this is healthy. I have neither the time nor the inclination to be making my own bread and mayonnaise. I'll buy the cheapest tinned tomatoes I can get then spend hours agonising about how processed they are. Life is for living and I'll continue to buy supermarket bread, cereal, sunflower oil and mayonnaise amongst other things without a second thought.

No. If you look at the totality of the evidence there is an association. There aren’t new studies debunking this. Actually the body of evidence around excess saturated fat and the causal relationship with LDL cholesterol, atherosclerosis progression and heart disease is one of the most robust there is. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect, there will always be variance, but if you look across everything, it’s there. I’m afraid using a healthline link to try to back up your argument indicates you are not especially scientifically literate. That’s ok, most people aren’t. What’s not ok is going on the internet swearing blind about something you are not sufficiently qualified to comment on. Do you think the NHS, British Heart Foundation etc are lying? Why would it be in their best interest to give public health information that was incorrect?

Sorry meant to post a link to the bhf's article on rapeseed oil.

www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/ask-the-expert/rapeseed-oil

Imvho, your diet is clearly plenty healthy enough already, so the only question of any relevance at this point is whether you enjoy the food you eat atm. If yes, then stop obsessing over details outside your reasonable control, unless you fancy growing your own olives and pressing them, milking your own cows, etc - and even then, you can’t avoid microplastics and forever chemicals, so might as well accept that there is nothing to be gained from draining the fun out of keeping up with the latest food fashions.

Slavishly following the latest nutrition advice has never been the most beneficial way for anyone to spend their time - surely it hasn’t escaped your notice that what in one era has been considered best practice is subsequently pooh poohed as a bad idea? Naming no margarine v butter; the healthiness or otherwise of eating eggs every day; whether tuna is or isn’t safe to eat; whether pregnant women should or should not eat peanuts; whether organic food is the only safe food to eat, whether food should ever be fortified etc, etc. It is self-evidently the case that the advice on UPFs is confusing because nobody has the faintest idea how harmful most of it is in isolation - only that a lot of it is clearly bad for you.

Thank you 🙏

On the seed oil thing specifically, I think the point is that any oils that are cheaply, mass produced are probably going through processes that mean they are intrinsicaly changed (beyond changs that occur in food when it's cooked etc) and that is not ideal. So if you're using oils in dressings or to cook with, then yes, stick with cold pressed versions. But if "rapeseed" oil is a tiny ingredient in something else, even if it isn't cold pressed, that's where I'm not goign to get too worked up.

Re your flatbread issue - how often do you eat them? Those deli kitchen ones are not ideal if you[re having them daily, but I'd have les of issue with them once or twice a month (we do have them sometimes actually - I like the Crosta ones but I like the teture of the Deli kitchen or Levantine Table ones). Making your own can be a faff but it's not too bad - Jamie Oliver has a few different versions which all work well in my experience.

LIke many others, I've always tried to mostly eat fresh food, long before UPFs becaomse the buzz word. In the past, I wa avoiding excessive sugar, salt and "chemicals" but that's evolved to being about UPFs. What that means is our actual meals are made with unprocessed or only lightly processed (cheese etc) ingredients. I use very little "convenience" food. But I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about that jar of mayo. the one ingredient I do get a bit frustrated by is coconut milk in tins for curries - that can be hard to find that doesn't seem to be made in some kind of weird factory with all kinds of shit in it!

And I'm a lot more conscious of b read generally because so much of it is not made well. Sourdough or Jason's mostly here, with the odd fresh made bread from bread machine thrown in.

It's obvious that the hysteria around upf's is another stick to beat us with.

If you mostly eat food cooked from scratch then buying seed oils for cooking (I have sunflower, coconut, olive and ghee depending on what I'm cooking), having occasional foods bought partially ready made eg gnocchi or buying bread isn't a big deal. The problem is that some people eat close to no unprocessed food, even fruit is those processed roll up things.

Try to put into context that you get a good diet! I'm about to cook dinner but I didn't make the couscous from raw durum wheat myself from scratch it's obviously the kind we buy from the supermarket, and i will use sunflower oil as I don't want any flavour from it, everything else is completely raw

I'm aware I'll be slated but rhe whole supermarket bread thing makes me think of the Billy Connolly quote which just about sums up my attitude to the whole thing.

" The brown bread/white bread brigade. Absolute pains in the arse. You’re just about to bite into a lovely big white bread sandwich and some spotty wee idiot comes along and says, “Do you know they put bleach in that and it poisons you?”
“Aye – and it’s f. kin’ delicious!” And I also like to say to them, “I hate brown bread – you never know when it’s toasted!”
But instead I ask them: “You eat brown bread your whole life. I eat white bread my whole life. How much longer are you going to live than me? A fortnight? Ten days? Don’t say 20 years – you know that’s crap.
We’re talking a fortnight – tops. But it isn’t a fortnight when you’re 18, shagging everything that walks in front of you.
No, it’s a fortnight when you’re in an old folks’ home, pissing in your trousers, being fed out of a blender! And the nurse who’s feeding you is going: ‘Aw, you’re looking awful sad! There’s such an awful sad expression on your face. Is that because all your friends are dead? Aw, they were the white bread crowd. But don’t you worry – you’ve got another two weeks to go!’”

I will confess to not reading the full thread, just the op’s replies - regarding seed oils, why can’t you use olive oil? This is not a seed oil and considered a healthy oil, the more virgin the better.

😂😂😂

For anyone wanting a good bread recipe ideal for serving with meals, with hummus etc

3 cups bread flour
1 tablespoon olive oil,
1 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp salt,
1/2 tsp oregano
1 cup warm (tepid warm) water
7g yeast

Mix together, knead (add a little extra water too stiff) for 10 minutes. Leave to rise 1 hour
Knock back, put onto a greased baking tray pulled to a rectangle, leave 30 minutes, put dimples into it, top with a little olive oil, sea salt crystals perhaps woody herbs, leave 15 mins, bake for 20 minutes at 180 degrees

Evidence is important, but it needs to be looked at in the context of how research comes about.

There is no money to be made (and likely some to be lost) investigating ingredients, so raising funds for research in this areas is really hard.

So lack of (eg) double blind placebo trials into particular UPFs isn’t indicative that they are safe.

For me (scientist but not in this field), there is enough compelling evidence linking diets high in UPFs to life-limiting conditions and chronic diseases to make me want to reduce my consumption drastically.

Labelling isn’t always clear. Some will (eg) list ‘flour’ whilst others will detail the contents of the flour.

I’m not entirely clear why you are more bothered by the presence of UPFs than the deleterious effects they have on the body, but whatever your reasons for not wanting to consume them, I agree that they are far too pervasive.

I would love more options to buy UPF free food, but the cost is prohibitive for a lot of it.

I try to mostly make my own sourdough, pizza, naan, yoghurt, cook most things from scratch. Avoid most meat, especially processed stuff.

Where I really struggle is treat foods (chocolate, ice cream) and when anything throws off the system - being ill, away for work, missing a shop etc.

But I think 80% is a good aim.

I've said this before many times on MN so i'm going to just C&P a previous post (not meaning to be rude or dismissive, just rushed!)

TLDR is: the fundamental thinking on which many claims about the 'healthiness' or otherwise of various food types were made before we began to understand the importance of the gut microbiome in many physical and mental health issues - fundamentally through its impact on inflammation in the body.

So while it may be true that seed oils are 'heart healthy', that doesn't mean that they don't have a negative impact elsewhere via their effect on gut microbiota.

"UPFs are a huge problem.
not because of salt sugar fat , but because of the impact on the gut microbiome of emulsifiers, thickeners, preservatives and probably refined seed oils. Put simply, these ingredients kill ‘good’ bacteria in the gut.
we know very very little about the microbiome but we know that there is a strong link between it and the amount of inflammation in the body. Inflammation is always negative and is connected to many forms of physical disease. There is also increasing evidence of a connection between gut health and mental illness.
Disappointingly, many health ‘experts’ including perhaps - gasp - Oxford nutritionists are not up to date with this emerging research and are still working with a ‘nutrient’ based approach to health which ignores the way that the microbiome mediates what goes into the body."

(the 'gasp - oxford nutritionists' bit is because someone said she'd been told by an ON that some UPF or other was fine)

A little of everything and nothing to excess.

I work on that basis and never give UPF a second thought.

Having read this thread, I'm even more convinced that's the correct way to do it.

I think the move to saturated fats in cooking came from studies that suggested unsaturated fats were prone to becoming trans fats when heated - but it seems this is unlikely / marginal at most normal cooking temps (excluding deep frying).

I wonder if that’s why people think ghee / butter is better?

But what is it about processing that is bad? Specifically?
We process most things we eat. We most certainly process wheat to make it into a flor and then into bread. Of it's not the ingredients, then what makes UPF bad for you? Why is it that agar-agar naturally found in algae is "good" but E406 is "bad"?

Because I’ve got a mortgage in London 😂

The group that have the highest percentage of UPF calories (100%) are formula fed babies. Breast fed babies get 0% of their calories from UPFs. The evidence seems to be that the difference in health outcomes between those two groups are marginal.

No it doesn't. It really really doesn't.

Check your attitude, accusing posters with a question or concern about UPF of mental illness is ridiculous and, like I sad, a bit tabloid-y. Get back to your take a break magazine.
If I was concerned about nutrition for a young child, that would be ok? But not when it comes to myself?

I don't even have anxiety let alone a health related one
I have problems in life but that ain't one of them. Sorry!

@dhfkabduuori
Dr Wills (avocado oil) or Hunter Gather (avo or olive oil). Brutally expensive though.

I'm afraid, statements like "Inflammation is always negative" is what makes the rest of your post very hard to take seriously. Inflammation is the natural mechanism by which the body fights disease and heals injuries. Maybe inflammation is negative in the context you choose to provide here (maybe it isn't) but insisting is is always negative is ignorant. Ever wondered why you get a fever when you contract an infection? It's your clever body initiating immune response. We wouldn't survive as species without it.
Chronic inflammation is a different matter. So if that's what you are referring to here, then make it clear.

Op, you are coming across as an unpleasant snob.

There's no indication that any particular people on this thread are working class or read tabloids or take a break magazine. Just stop, you are coming across awfully.

There's no definite definition on UPF

this video explains what exactly is problem with definitions

Seed oil panic is just a panic, btw

Ah yes, I recall that.

There's rather an abundance of mumsnet threads (after a search) which prove that no one can agree on any one thing. Eating, after all, is a personal choice, if we are lucky enough to afford it, and one size doesn't fit all.

There are tons of threads where a poster claims that reducing wheat cured their IBS or acne. More of the same regarding dairy, carbs, etc. This hardly ever applies to all of us, and I certainly never achieved anything from testing out low carb. Food doesn't appear to affect my gut n an adverse way, but stress does.

All that said, it would be very hard to avoid seed oils altogether. Unless one prepares absolutely everything from scratch, it's almost impossible. I have a good and varied diet, but meat with a bunch of hot veg does get old a bit quick. If I avoided everything with seed oil in it I would be stuck with very little joy.

Same goes for wheat, dairy, etc. I have no idea how people cut so much out of their diets and manage it to be honest. It feels so austere.