To wonder what happens when a child is neglected? What is the threshold for safeguarding procedures?

[Cassy2000]

Two girls, 8 and 10. Homework and reading never done at home with mum (sometimes done at other relatives’ houses) and behind in all areas, hair unbrushed, bathed twice a week, persistent untreated contagious infections. School notified repeatedly about the infections.

What is the threshold for any kind of action? Is this just deemed “good enough” parenting?

Honestly, there’s no fixed answer on this. But the threshold is very high on neglect - rightly so in a way because removing a child from their family is a huge thing and should only be done in the most extreme of circumstances.

What the most extreme of circumstances is going to be will obviously vary to an extent but certainly not doing homework and not bathing more than twice a week wouldn’t be it.

It isn’t really clear why they are getting infections. I mean, I bath my children more than twice a week but equally it isn’t so low that it should be leading to infections either.

What kind of infections?
Are they fed, reasonably clean, good school attendance, is there violence/abuse at home?

Yes they’re fed, albeit a low quality diet and they’re often constipated and with viruses. There’s no violence to humans that we’re aware of, though there is to animals. Reasonably clean I guess, school attendance is good.

Infections are all relatively common childhood ones like scabies, ringworm, impetigo, nits etc, but left untreated.

Sound like they could do with a bit of family support going in but where I am I don't think would be place on child protection register/ have significant social work involvement.

There is no threshold for reporting a safeguarding concern. Any concern should be reported to the school's safeguarding lead. Whether ornot to take action is then the decision of those with the training and contacts to make that decision well.

What’s your relationship to these children @Cassy2000 ?

Sounds like neglect (particularly the healthcare aspect), but possibly through ignorance? Have you reported it? It might be that they just might need a family support worker for a little while.

That might qualify for early help services although mum would need to agree to it. The only real one that might flag anything there is the untreated infections but not enough for a social worker.
how do you know all this about the children?

It rather depends on how aware you are of what is “normal”. Bathing twice a week, good school attendance sound fine to me. Poor diet is less defined. Is it “they eat beans on toast and frozen pizza a lot”, or “they are hungry and don’t eat any fruit or veg”. Infections like nits and impetigo are the bane of many primary schools. Reinfection can be very tedious and clearing up takes several weeks even for the lost diligent.
Report animals being abused.

They won't be removed for not reading and only bathing twice a week. Plenty of kids do that!

The family may need some support to deal with the medical issues. The rest is deemed good enough sadly.

Threshold for social services is high. Where I am they might get signposted to early help but think engagement with them is optional.

You can continue to flag to the school. I've made a few calls to my kids primary school - no idea the outcome as I did my bit.

The only thing that would worry me is the constant untreated infections.
I don't think not doing homework and bathing twice a week are indicative of neglect but if they are not cared for when they are sick that is a big concern

Threshold for children being taken into care or even CP or CIN is very high. I agree with PP that the constant infections would be the most concerning thing as that's a health need.

The medical neglect could be an issue.

Homework and low attainment are never going to be as issues.

Do they have beds?

How often do the sheets get changed?

Do they have clothes & shoes that fit? How many wears before they are washed?

Are they overdue dental & optical check ups?

Vaccinations?

Frequent a&e trips?

Accidents at home?

Animal faeces on the carpets?

Toilet roll in bathroom?

Clean towels?

Eat fruit & veg?

Smacking/shouting?

Home heated?

Sleep routine?

Underweight/overweight?

Out of the house at weekends?

I reported exh to ss for 2 major concerns year ago.
Issue 1 he left 3 under 10 dc home alone every Saturday night when he went to the pub.
'Different parenting styles' was their response..
Dc disclosed to me a convicted sex offender was in their bedroom playing Xbox while exh was downstairs.
'bet it was nice for the dc to have a catch up with man x'...
Reported to Cafcass as still involved with court proceedings...
Exh made the dc say it didn't happen..
Guess who was believed?

Exactly this. The thresholds are only relevant if you’re reporting in a professional capacity - but even then you’re allowed to contact for guidance.

However, as you asked, the thresholds for your own county council can be googled and you can make a referral through your local MASH (multi agency safeguarding hub)

Sounds like an early help referral may be useful for the untreated infections. If you are a family member I suggest you ask for a confidential meeting with the school.

At first I thought you could be their teacher but then you wouldn’t know how frequently they had a bath so I assume you know the family personally?

How do you know the infections aren’t treated? Reoccurring nits can be a problem and I think impetigo can flare up.

Midwife here. This would probably qualify for ‘Early Help’ At best but for that level of support, you would need the mum’s consent to do a referral. Unless there was any proof that her ‘neglect’ was having serious repercussions for the children’s medical or emotional health, that is nowhere near the threshold for neglect from a safeguarding point of view. It would be worth understanding if there were any underlying reasons for this - mental health or substance abuse problems for example?

not a lot. I was neglected to the extremes as a child and was on a child protection plan for 4 years then went down to child in need.

Good school attendance is a positive, including that the school see the children very frequently.

Sadly other children live in much worse conditions than you describe, without hitting threshold.

Are you able to contact the school ( if you are the other parent for instance;? If not contact the LA safeguarding team. Any additional information may add to a bigger picture. Your LA will have this, just google safeguarding children.

https://www.lincolnshire.gov.uk/safeguarding/report-concern

If the parent(S) are in agreement, early help support is the most likely first step.

I would expect school to make to CSC. But I would make a report myself, better to say something if you have a concern. You can do this anonymously.
what’s the worst outcome of making a report and everything is ok?

DD friend, age 11-12, told my DD she was pregnant from a brothers friend. Of course I reported it. Turns out other mothers did as well.

Turns out the girl was telling loads of stories about her mother abusing her, and she & her mother both being pregnant. Quite a few moms reported it to school or safeguarding.

Girl came to school and was angry the other girls told their mums. She admitted it was lies & got idea from TV.

Sad as it is that won't be counted as neglect. An almost nine year old girl trying to feed her baby brother with 1 scoop of formula and cold water from the tap shaken up and given to a 5 month old baby was deemed as neglect. Both DC taken into care by SS but Judge gave them back to this drug addict mother. The bar is so so low for making sure all DC receive good quality care and a decent chance in life. Even if/when SS take child into care Judges often send them back to parents because they promise to stop the drugs/alcohol etc but they usually don't because they are addicted.

The threshold is way, way higher than this.

I mean, as a pp said, anyone can report any concerns, but nothing you have described would trigger a report from me.

I despair at the number of dc taken off CP plans when the children deserve to be protected. I am always confused how some individual cases hit the headlines and people express their utmost horror, when there are so many children being let down by underfunded Social Care in our country, but you seem to be talking about 2 children who are bathed regularly, who have enough to eat, and who attend school consistently.

What is your relationship to them @Cassy2000 ?

Any concern is enough to report for safeguarding, sometimes it's not about what one person sees but a bigger picture that comes from several smaller things. So if you're concerned, report.

That said they obviously have family support if someone else is reading with them, I don't think there's an issue with small children bathing twice a week. It's awfully unlucky rather than anything else to have had scabies, impetigo, nits, ringworm and more. Are you saying they've had all these and more? If they have surely several other pupils have all had them too?

My son’s in a relationship with their mum so they’re my granddaughter’s sisters. The relationship is bad for many reasons and looks likely to end soon and I’m concerned about the future for all three of them.

Reading the thresholds on the local council’s website was a real eye-opener.