Is this hourly rate too high?

[Question285]

I’m looking for a cleaner for a couple of hours weekly. I budgeted £18-20 per hour, but I’ve received a quote of £25 per hour. This is an independent cleaner, albeit with a proper set up. AIBU to think that this is a lot?

I’m in the NW in a reasonably affluent area, but it’s not London. Also, we live in a very normal family home. It’s not a job with an NDA in a mansion.

I’ve checked some local sm groups and it seems that £25 per hour is not unheard of, so I don’t think she was trying to put us off.

I understand overheads, tax etc. come out of that, so she’s not left with £25. But I can’t help thinking that I earn less than that gross in a role that took the better part of a decade to train for. It also comes with a lot more responsibility and less flexibility than a self employed cleaner has.

Is this where things are because of minimum wage increases? I’m not saying they were a bad thing, people should be able to live off their wages. But it seems that middle earners salaries have not kept up if for a low skilled job you can earn as much as a high skilled worker.

£15 seems to be the going rate round here.

Cleaning is generally speaking a low paid job.

People prefer it over eg working in a supermarket as they have control over their own hours. Most independent cleaners I’ve met have gone it alone as they get paid more than via an agency.

If OP’s cleaner can charge £25/h and get customers, all credit to her, but it’s not the norm by any stretch of the imagination.

not all of them are tax free expenses and even if she gets tax breaks, still still has to earn the money to cover those costs in the first place (with the exception of taxes owed which are proportionate to her earnings)

and as I said - I’m not looking for any pity! Just wanted to explain why you can not, at all, compare her “hourly rate” to yours as a salaried employee.

you can choose whether you’re willing to pay that or not, but that’s separate to whether she is justified in charging that

Yes, I wouldn’t pay that. Shop around.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be honest. If she’s good, reliable and trustworthy it’s worth the money. My cleaner is worth her weight in gold and saves me a huge amount of time and head space. I can understand though if you’re paid near her hourly rate that you might not feel it’s worth it - if that were the case I’d do it but pay myself the equivalent and use it for a weekend away every so often.

£23-£25 an hour here, SW

Re travel, your "normal commute" isn't a tax deductible expense, but it's not for the self employed either, if, say, they have a daily commute from home to their office or workshop. Their travel is only allowable for travel between jobs, just like an employee would be able to claim from their normal workplace to somewhere different, i.e. a different branch or a training course. There's really not much difference! It's just that self employed can often travel to various different clients, but if they were employed and spent the day travelling between their employer's customers, they'd be able to claim it too!

Same with other expenses, as an employee, you CAN claim tax relief on tools, equipment and expenses that you have to incur personally as per your contract of employment. If, say, your contract of employment specifies you have to provide your own laptop, then you can claim the cost of your laptop against your earnings for tax purposes. Likewise the likes of car mechanics who have to provide their own tool kit. For the majority of workers, the employer provides what you need to do your job, so you'd don't have the costs to pay personally, hence why you don't get tax relief.

As a paid employee I pay tax, NI, pension, travel, parking and lunch. Of course being SE brings further costs and considerations such as no sick pay, holiday, pension top up etc - not debating it for a moment and I agree that you can’t compare the hourly rate of a SE worker to that of an employed one. But let’s not get too carried away here… £25 ph is a lot for a cleaner.

By the way, I’m all for cleaners earning as much as they can get - all power to them along with all the skilled and unskilled workers out there, many of them work harder than office monkeys and do an amazing job. It’s supply and demand, which is why tradespeople should get paid well too.

Thank you from a self-employed person. You wrote what I was going to.

30x 20pph is nearly 32k a year

the other 7 hours spent travelling is fair enough

most people work 37 hours pw for 32k a year plus pay for travel and spend 5 hours traveling to and from

£20 is fair imo

We stopped having a cleaner when the going rate hit £20. London.
Fuck it... I can do it myself for free.

Yes you pay those things (except parking and lunch) out of your gross (pre tax) salary. Most people seem to compare their equivalent net hourly rate to that of a self employed person (which also has to cover much more than just tax, pension and NI)

Most things can be done for free. I.e. some service their own cars, some do their own decorating, their own gardening, their own DIY, their own plumbing, their own window cleaning, wash their own cars, etc. It's up to the person themselves whether they wish to spend their time doing such things or whether they'd rather pay someone else to do it. We all have choices. Just as a self employed person has the choice what to quote potential clients.

Thank you! Everyone please read all of @Badbadbunny’s posts….who I assume is an accountant or finance advisor and the one on this thread providing detailed up to date information.

self employment or running things through a limited company is not the “gravy train” is may have been 15 years ago.

I get where you are coming from @Question285 I’m in a profession which, when I state job, people say ‘oh wow’. It took me Over 10yrs to completely qualify, I have further qualifications, am specialist and experienced.
My gross pay is £29.50 ph (can’t face working out net). Yes I get paid holiday and pension contributions. But when I pay my hairdresser the equivalent of over £100ph for my simple haircut I do wonder.

£25 per day

7 hr day

Allow 1 unpaid hour travelling per day between clients ( not including first and last trips to home ) - So 6 paid hrs a day

And she takes 5 weeks holiday per year
And budgets for 5 sick days a year

So she works at best 230 days a year and 6 hrs a day leads to a gross pay of 34500 form which pensions and NI and tax get paid

But out of that she needs to take other costs ( insurance, accountancy , possible materials)

The travel times might be more

And it's possible that she can't fill all the hours each day -perhaps someone cancels on odd weeks ( clients ill or on holiday ) or she has an hour unfilled because no one wants just an hour of cleaning

So at best a pretty average wage and physically demanding over the week

Would you begrudge people getting paid a wage that enabled them to minimise any benefits they need and to claim ?

Don’t forget that from April your employer will be paying around £3.75 an hour employers NI on your £25.50, which if the cleaner is doing things properly (and there’s no reason to believe they aren’t) also has to be factored in to the rate you’re charged.

Presumably you don't pay towards the rent, utilities and maintenance of your employer's premises?

Whereas the hairdresser has rent, utilities, insurance, cleaning, staffing, bank charges, subscriptions, etc to pay out of what she charges you. Plus unpaid holidays and sick leave, paying her own pension, etc etc.

£17-£19 an hour is the going rate where we are, midlands. I wouldn't pay £25.

As you’ll see I mentioned holiday and pension. Plus you make an assumption I work from employers premises.
If you believe it costs £70ph for all that may I suggest your running costs are too high

Unless you are hiring her for 8 hours at a time (which most people don’t), as well as other overheads and having to fund holidays and sick pay, she needs to pay for travelling from one client to another.

She may get £25 an hour but if she can only charge for 5 or 6 hours a day (while still being occupied with work for the full 8 or 9 hours), it massively reduces her take home pay.

I paid this 5 years ago in the Midlands so it sound reasonable for a cleaner who is properly insured and who actually declares her income to the tax man (so not cash in hand).

I pay NI from the gross income I mentioned. The employer’s contribution is separate and self employed people don’t pay NI twice either.

Depends how she is set up. If she’s set up as a limited company, she will be paying NI twice (as her company employs her).

what do you mean by too high? That's what she charges!
you pays your money and you takes your choice!

She could be running her cleaning as a Ltd company - it would make sense from a liability perpective and is certainly how my cleaner operates. So, if she’s paying herself through payroll she will be effectively paying both employees and employees NI.

eta @YoshiIsCute beat me to it :)

That’s highly unlikely as a PP explained as it wouldn’t make financial sense for her. But if she is set up as a ltd company, at this level of income she would probably pay herself a wage that is not liable for NI.

Edited to add that in that case she’s not technically self employed either.