Is this hourly rate too high?

[Question285]

I’m looking for a cleaner for a couple of hours weekly. I budgeted £18-20 per hour, but I’ve received a quote of £25 per hour. This is an independent cleaner, albeit with a proper set up. AIBU to think that this is a lot?

I’m in the NW in a reasonably affluent area, but it’s not London. Also, we live in a very normal family home. It’s not a job with an NDA in a mansion.

I’ve checked some local sm groups and it seems that £25 per hour is not unheard of, so I don’t think she was trying to put us off.

I understand overheads, tax etc. come out of that, so she’s not left with £25. But I can’t help thinking that I earn less than that gross in a role that took the better part of a decade to train for. It also comes with a lot more responsibility and less flexibility than a self employed cleaner has.

Is this where things are because of minimum wage increases? I’m not saying they were a bad thing, people should be able to live off their wages. But it seems that middle earners salaries have not kept up if for a low skilled job you can earn as much as a high skilled worker.

Seems pretty insane to me. I’d rather do it myself and ‘pay myself‘ that money. But Mumsnet is a place where many seem to sneer at skilled tradespeople who charge high amounts for the same reasons listed here yet extol the wonders of someone who knows how to use a mop and a hoover like it’s some form of mystical sorcery. I’m not being down on cleaners - I’ve had them in the past and they’ve been wonderful and well-rewarded. But since going pt I’ve worked out that there really isn’t any dark art involved in keeping a house clean so for that reason I wouldn’t pay £25 an hour for someone else to do it for us!

Wow. Professional cleaning is a skill. If you have ever had a cleaner that was not a professional you would know that. People think they can just 'clean' but in actual fact it is challenging physical work. My cleaner is £20 an hour, £20 - £25 is about the going rate around here, mine is £20 as she is starting out and i expect it will go up at some point, but she is really good. Your cleaner does not make £25 an hour. It is likely you will make more than her an hour when you take into account tax and overheads. Her travel will cost quite a bit also, as she is likely to travel more frequently thank you and won't reimburse. As a loose example, for a self employed person wanting to earn £25,000 per annum, their hourly rate would be £19.98 per hour, taking into account overheads, petrol, business expenses and annual leave etc. £25,000 is not even an average UK salary.

The challenge is, she won't actually earn £25 an hour. She won't get paid for AL, sickness, when travelling between appointments. It also depends a bit on how many hours you have asked for. If only 1/2, then she looses money when travelling to next job. But if it's 3-4 hours I would expect £18-20 an hour.
We paid £22, but tbh I found it more effort as I had to rush around tidying before she came, so didn't help with my stress levels. I reduced my hours at work a little and do it myself now, which works better for us.

Absolute mickey take

Where I live its £22.50 average, highest I've had back is £25. Not affluent but cleaners seems to be in high demand so charge more than other places I know.
My friend is a cleaner in an affluent area outside of London and she only charges £16-£18 an hour. She was shocked at what I was quoted.

I think I was also a bit surprised because we’ve recently hired a handyman who charged the same £25/h. He did a few jobs for us which I think require a lot of skill (a bit of tiling and joinery work), he had lots of tools, a van etc. also self employed with all that involves, but I agree with you that the two jobs are quite different in terms of skill set.

That's high. I pay £15ph

She's free to ask for anything she wants and if the demand is high enough, she'll get it. I wouldn't pay that. Up to you if you think it's worth it or not.

Incidentally, I don't know why people insist it's a skilled job, by definition it's unskilled, as it doesn't require any specialised training or qualifications. Any job requires skills - that doesn't make them skilled.

Well, tax evaders and benefit fraudsters can work more cheaply as it's extra pocket money to them!

I've hired, many, many cleaners, and had even more come to quote.

The prices have ranged from £15/hour to £99/hour (not kidding).

For £15/hour or less you will get someone who is probably not as good at cleaning as you. I have had cleaners that charged that but took 3 hours instead of 2 and the end result wasn't as good, so it can be false economy.

£25/hour is reasonable, especially if they are good. And if they're also reliable you've basically won the lottery. However, it may be that price because they don't like your location or they are swamped with jobs (and may drop you if someone more conveniently located comes along).

It also depends what's included - some will change bedding, do washing up etc, some won't even dust skirting boards.

It does make a big difference if a cleaner is good - your house looks and feels MUCH cleaner than if you did it.

Higher end, I'd say, but not extortionate. Especially if they are providing the materials as well.

As previous posters are pointing out, self employed cleaners are not getting the full hourly rate that you pay. On top of tax and NI, they also have make their own private pension arrangements (no employer contributions there), and also cover their own holidays and sickness. They should also have PL insurance.

They don't get paid travel time, petrol/bus, or admin time. They may provide materials and equipment which adds up very quickly. Plus they are very unlikely to be working a full 40 hour week, due to logistics of moving between clients, or having gaps in their diary.

Yes, it can be a flexible job, but that can work both ways. Many cleaners don't charge if you are on holiday, even though they are available for work. They also will often accept cancellations at short notice, but can't fill those hours with another client. It's also not an easy job, and I don't know any rich cleaners!! You really can't compare the hourly rate to that of someone working full time in an employed role. It's just not the same at all.

If I earnt £25 an hour , I would not be paying some that to clean.
I would be paying myself into a holiday fund. 3 hours x 50 weeks is a nice holiday ....

I haven’t read the full thread so someone may have already said this but I find these comparisons quite grating as someone who is also self employed / runs my own business with a proper set up through a limited company.

I’m not a cleaner but if she’s doing it properly she’ll either be running a limited company or set up as a sole trader and both come with thousands of pounds of costs.

As a salaried employee, here’s a sample of the costs you don’t incur (or have to fund yourself out of your net pay):

• taxes - personal, company, NI
• accountancy - again both personal and business/company
• business banking fees
• sick pay
• holiday pay
• pension contributions
• website or at least business phone / email address (none of that is free!)
• insurance - possibly more than one policy to cover public liability, loss of business, tax enquiry, etc
• companies house fees
• ICO fees
• cost of cleaning materials if they are supplying them
• travel to multiple client locations, both the time required and the actual travel costs
• time required to generate new business, manage client communications etc - do not underestimate how time consuming this is & this is time she can’t charge for
• making sure she has enough to cover and down periods, when a bunch of clients cancel her services at once because of the next economic crisis

This is not a post designed to generate sympathy for business owners. Simply trying to educate salaried employees as before I started my own business I didn’t know about all of these costs either.

They are likely working for less that minimum wage if charging 15/hr

They are independent (as it says in the OP) and minimum wage is £12.21ph from April .

But if they are self employed, the amount they charge per hour isn't the same as earning 15/hr

Have you not read the thread. Many people have pointed out the differences between employment and self employment. No honest/sane person would work self employed for the same pay they could get stacking shelves in a supermarket because of all the costs and non chargeable time, and "extras" financed by employers such as sick pay, holiday pay, etc.

You can’t compare your job to hers. Your employer/clients don’t randomly decide they don’t need you when they go on holiday and therefore not pay you. She doesn’t get employer pension contributions. She won’t be working a full 40hr week. She won’t get any redundancy pay or notice period. She won’t get sick or holiday pay.

She has priced herself accordingly and you can look for someone cheaper, but you might not get the same service.

I wouldn’t pay it but I think it’s reasonable when you take into account petrol, products, HMRC deductions, insurance, holiday pay uplift and self employed pension contributions (own contribution plus extra to make up for an obligatory employer contribution in a regular job). Self employed cleaners enjoy little in the way of job security, as they are often the first expense to be cut in hard times.

Whilst there are costs associated with self employment/running a business there are also advantages in terms of tax rate paid compared to someone who is PAYE for the same income.

Some of it legal and some not but there are plenty of self employed people who pay very little tax on income compared to the equivalent PAYE salary. Even more options if you make a limited company (not difficult) and pay yourself dividends.

But if OP lives in an affluent area, where house prices and rents will be expensive, how is somebody supposed to support themselves and a family on £15 an hour, without working all the hours under the sun or resorting to claiming top up benefits to boost their income? That’s barely above minimum wage, and a self-employed cleaner has costs an employed one doesn’t. Either we think wages for so-called unskilled jobs in the U.K. are too low and should be higher because working people should earn enough to support themselves, or we don’t. If we do, we can’t then also be shocked that people requesting higher wages are expensive.

I would never be self employed for the reasons you state above. It is a very hard slog when you are getting started and getting started can be anything from 1 to 10 years! I admire people who do it. I was with someone for 10 years in my twenties who was self employed and it was challenging and I knew it would never be for me as I like having the security of a wage and not having to do all you cite. I think some of the views on this thread are ignorant. I dont think £25 is bad at all, and it does obviously depend where you live, I am in the South, I was paying £15 for a cleaner 14 years ago and I am not paying £20 which I dont think has really gone up with cost of living etc. Also those citing minimum wage, regardless of the fact that it is comparing apples to oranges in this scenario, I think NMW is appalling in this country and I have no idea how people survive on it.

I understand that and I tried to make the comparison as close as possible by giving my hourly rate before deductions and including holiday pay and employer pension contributions.

As an employee you still have to travel to and from work which is not paid and you can’t claim petrol or your car as business expenses. Most of what you’ve listed are tax free expenses, some of which can be for personal use too. I never said she ends up with £25 cash per hour. But neither does a salaried employee. And people choose to be self employed because of the flexibility, they’re not hard done by and deserving pity. People have a choice to either be salaried or self employed and there are pros and cons in both situations.

This is true but generally only really relevant or worth the extra overhead and admin required for high earners (£80/ hour at least)

You're out of date. Dividends are no longer a low tax option. In fact due to recent changes, someone earning average income is now better off being a sole trader and shutting down their limited company. We're doing exactly that for several of our limited company clients and we're setting up new business clients as sole traders or partnerships. A couple of decades ago (thanks to Gordon Brown's idiotic changes), we'd be setting literally every new business up as a limited company. Things have really changed.

Tax-deductible expenses aren't the magic bullet that "pub talk" people would have you believe either. If done legally, there's not that much different between what is allowable as a sole trader compared with an employee, other than expenses an employer would cover than a sole trader would have to pay for himself. It's mostly drunken pub talk bravado where people claim they've put their family holidays and their kid's christmas presents through their business as a tax expense - in reality, just doesn't happen.