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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not understand why Katharine Birbalsingh is so controversial

341 replies

TemporaryPosition · 22/02/2025 12:34

Just that. Am I being unreasonable in thinking the results she achieves at her school and start in life her students get which they likely otherwise wouldn't - is something to be celebrated and perhaps we should look to what's going wrong in schools which face the the same socioeconomic challenges but get far poorer results. Surely I'm not being unreasonable to wonder this.

OP posts:
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ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 15:59

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 15:43

Oh, you are the person I was disagreeing with who is now agreeing with me. How odd.

Anyway, you said "Do you think she should vet who can visit and not allow 'controversial' people to visit?"

And the answer is 'yes, she can'. Which we both agree on.

Your logical reasoning fails you again.

Note the difference between the words should and can in your argument

Consider how these change the proposition.

I'll help you:

Can headteachers refuse visitors who take positions on which some people disagree?

We agree they can.

Should headteachers refuse visitors because they have positions on which some people disagree?

I say no this is an illberal very poor example to set children who should exposed to a variety of viewpoints to build their critical reasoning skills.

I take it you think headteachers should only allow visitors with particular viewpoints to visit?

(Reminder: they can do this we're now considering should they?)

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 16:04

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 23/02/2025 15:58

I'd remove my child from any school which did this. It should be a sackable offence.

Ah headteachers should be sacked for allowing visitors who have viewpoints with which some people disagree!

What a marvellous liberal education of critical thinkers you'll create with this view.

TwoProngedFork · 23/02/2025 16:19

Ablondiebutagoody · 22/02/2025 14:00

I like her. High standards and expectations for kids that the rest of the education blob would be happy to stand back and watch smash the school up.

This basically. She's bit intentionally controversial. She's one of the few saying the truth about the unwise decisions this government is making. I wish there were more schools like hers.

JustSawJohnny · 23/02/2025 16:19

user1471516498 · 22/02/2025 12:36

It's because she posts so much controversial stuff on social media.

100%

She's a right-wing gobshite.

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 16:24

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 15:59

Your logical reasoning fails you again.

Note the difference between the words should and can in your argument

Consider how these change the proposition.

I'll help you:

Can headteachers refuse visitors who take positions on which some people disagree?

We agree they can.

Should headteachers refuse visitors because they have positions on which some people disagree?

I say no this is an illberal very poor example to set children who should exposed to a variety of viewpoints to build their critical reasoning skills.

I take it you think headteachers should only allow visitors with particular viewpoints to visit?

(Reminder: they can do this we're now considering should they?)

You don't think that headteachers should vet and not allow controversial people into their schools because it's illiberal?

Are you sure? We are talking about access to other people's children here. Anything goes?

poetryandwine · 23/02/2025 16:31

Ddakji · 23/02/2025 15:36

You can request all you like - this is Mumsnet not a classroom, not a court of law and I’m just chatting. Maybe I used the word research when I meant stats - who knows? Like I said, I’m not in a classroom and you’re not (thank god) my teacher.

I would have thought that was pretty obvious but perhaps people in HE STEM can’t tell the difference between a parenting chat forum and academia.

Why not just be graceful about KB’s lack of reasoning? Or find a stronger example of hers if it exists?

Instead of attacking me

GrammarTeacher · 23/02/2025 16:48

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 15:21

JP doesn't need KB to promote him 🤣 🤣

Anyone can visit Michaela.
Loads of people do.

Do you think she should vet who can visit and not allow 'controversial' people to visit?

Who gets to decide which mainstream academics are too controversial to be allowed?

The arguments here are getting more ridiculous:

She's controversial because controversial people visit her school.
The people who visit are controversial because a former archbishop didn't like his book.

Get a grip people.

Of course she bloody should vet who visits the school and who she promotes visiting the school. JP is a dangerous misogynist. Extremists of any persuasion have no place in our schools.
They also charge for visits as it happens.

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 16:48

Anything goes?

Logic failure again.

No not anything goes.

But no headteachers shouldn't ban visitors because they have views some people disagree with.

Not the same thing.

Look this is boring now you've backed yourself into a stupid nonsensical corner arguing that KB shouldn't allow JP to visit her school.

Because some people disagree with him?

The only evidence offered for him being so abhorrent headteachers would be justified in banning him because of his views is that an archbishop critiqued his book in guardian.

I think kids should be exposed to a variety of views and it would be up to headteachers to justify why a person was so abhorrent children shouldn't be exposed to them or their views.

If you think JP fits into this category it's up to you to explain why.

KB allows many visitors and doesn't ask for their opinions before they are permitted.

Seems she's a lot more liberal than you.

What criteria would you like her to apply for banning 'controversial' people?

GrammarTeacher · 23/02/2025 16:51

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 16:24

You don't think that headteachers should vet and not allow controversial people into their schools because it's illiberal?

Are you sure? We are talking about access to other people's children here. Anything goes?

I bet the people saying that she should let anyone speak to the children would have an issue with India Willoughby speaking to students.

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 16:53

GrammarTeacher · 23/02/2025 16:48

Of course she bloody should vet who visits the school and who she promotes visiting the school. JP is a dangerous misogynist. Extremists of any persuasion have no place in our schools.
They also charge for visits as it happens.

They don't charge.

He's not a dangerous misogynist or extreme.

He's actually very liberal and mainstream.

You just don't like him and therfore want to ban him based on your own personal view.

Which makes you the dangerous extremist.
You just don't understand that.

I'd ban you.

(I wouldn't really. I'm just illustrating your point is stupid. I'd invite you in to debate the 6th form who'd destroy you.)

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 16:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ddakji · 23/02/2025 17:04

poetryandwine · 23/02/2025 16:31

Why not just be graceful about KB’s lack of reasoning? Or find a stronger example of hers if it exists?

Instead of attacking me

I‘m not attacking you 🤣. You made a demand of me that I’m uninclined to bother with.

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 17:12

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

A rotating door of actual Marxists it is then.

GrammarTeacher · 23/02/2025 17:17

I have to admit it’s hard work being a Marxist whilst teaching in a hot bed of academic elitism.
One where the students are taught to think for themselves.
But if you can’t see that JP is an extremist (struck off by his regulatory authority) I don’t really know what to say to you.

GrammarTeacher · 23/02/2025 17:18

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 16:53

They don't charge.

He's not a dangerous misogynist or extreme.

He's actually very liberal and mainstream.

You just don't like him and therfore want to ban him based on your own personal view.

Which makes you the dangerous extremist.
You just don't understand that.

I'd ban you.

(I wouldn't really. I'm just illustrating your point is stupid. I'd invite you in to debate the 6th form who'd destroy you.)

They do charge. Or rather specify that a donation is made.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 23/02/2025 17:18

There’s nothing liberal about him, or anyone who wants to invite him.

cardibach · 23/02/2025 17:32

poetryandwine · 23/02/2025 15:06

Here is KB’s incisive testimony to Parliament in April 2022, in her role as Social Mobility Commissioner for HMG. I quote from the BBC website: (Recall that 16% of girls at Michaela were doing physics A level as opposed to 23-24% nationally, is about 50% more in relative terms nationally are choosing physics than at Michaela)

^Just from my own knowledge of these things, physics isn’t something that girls tend to fancy. They don’t want to do it.

I just think they don’t like it. There’s a lot od hard maths in there that I think they would rather not do. That’s not to say there isn’t hard stuff to do in biology and chemistry - there is, but it’s not mathematical.^

Asked to explain [further] why she thought girls would be less likely to make the choice [of doing physics] she responded:

^I mean I don’t know. I can’t say - I mean I’m not an expert at that sort of thing.That’s what they say.

We’re certainly not out there campaigning for more girls to do physics - we wouldn’t do that, and I wouldn’t want to do that.

I mean, I want them to do what they want to do^.

A bright child could have provided more compelling testimony. Above, @noblegiraffe did.

I also want girls and boys to do what they want to do. But the statistics on suboptimal GCSE science preparation (I quoted above) and lagging physics uptake by girls at Michaela, together with KB’s complete lack of interest in exploring any of this, strongly suggest bias, a profit motive or both.

By now I have sourced my opinions rather credibly, @Ddakji . I am still interested in your sources as requested above. In HE STEM we have put rather a lot

It’s also crap as Chmistry has a lot of quite hard maths too.

cardibach · 23/02/2025 17:36

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 15:41

Nobody said she had to?

I said she has no reason not to.

You seem to believe that she should not because some people disagree with him.

I think this reasoning for a headteacher to refuse a visitor would be dangerously stupid, illiberal and a very poor example.

Did she have to let him speak to the student body too? Did she have to put it all over social media?

cardibach · 23/02/2025 17:39

ByGraceAlone · 23/02/2025 15:59

Your logical reasoning fails you again.

Note the difference between the words should and can in your argument

Consider how these change the proposition.

I'll help you:

Can headteachers refuse visitors who take positions on which some people disagree?

We agree they can.

Should headteachers refuse visitors because they have positions on which some people disagree?

I say no this is an illberal very poor example to set children who should exposed to a variety of viewpoints to build their critical reasoning skills.

I take it you think headteachers should only allow visitors with particular viewpoints to visit?

(Reminder: they can do this we're now considering should they?)

So if she let, say, Jeremy Corbyn visit and speak to the pupils then put out a load of positive social media posts in it you would think that was ok?

cooljerk · 23/02/2025 17:41

Because she was the head at a secondary inner-city free school, where a large proportion of the intake achieved good SATs results in Year 6 before arriving at said secondary school.

The reason these kids were achieving and continued to achieve is because they were often from aspirational first- or second-generation immigrant families who prioritised and valued education. Typically, the parents were supportive of the school, wanted their kids to achieve and do well in the UK, and had a culture of discipline at home. It was a kind of selection through the back door. If the children were not on course or predicted to achieve at KS2, Birbalsingh would not admit them to the Free School.

A Freedom of Information request to The Guardian confirms a ludicrous proportion of the intake achieving outstanding results in Year 6 - results which have no equivalence at mainstream schools.

Yes, many of the kids were on free school meals, but poverty vs affluence doesn't always equate in a straightforward way to values and culture, as most right-thinking people understand.

She then proceeded to make a song and dance about her transcendental methods, how she had turned kids' lives around, how her culture of discipline and high-expectations provided children with a quality education - the like of which they would not have had in the local mainstream, non-selective comprehensive (or which they'd have had to pay a fortune for, privately). Remember, these children already have discipline at home and high-expectations at home, which truly makes the difference.

It is easier to achieve results if you have a half-decent intake. Birbalsingh never tried to replicate her success in a predominantly white, coastal school. I'm thinking of Hastings, Norfolk, the Isle of Wight, Blackpool... all of which are reliably at the bottom of league tables. I taught in such a school briefly, and when I phoned home, to inform parents of a detention, a typical response would be 'Good luck with that, if you can get him to go'. If you spoke to a pupil about passing an exam, you'd get 'Well my mum has no qualifications and she is comfortable on the dole'.

Birbalsingh attributed all her pupils' and the school's success to herself, and not to the school's location (ethnically diverse; London) and certainly not to her policy of covert selection.

She is an absolute charlatan. She is also self-aggrandising and dishonest.

Apologies for the long post.

gatheryerosebuds · 23/02/2025 17:44

HermioneWeasley · 22/02/2025 12:37

I think it’s a mix of “kind racism” - the idea that black and brown kids shouldn’t be expected to have high standards of behaviour and academic success, and also the fact that her schools doesn’t work for all pupils. Every school in the country couldn’t be run along those lines because it’s too inflexible for ND kids, lids from chaotic homes etc. having said that there is definitely a place for it and she give the kids in her school a start in life they wouldn’t otherwise have had.

there’s a lot to be learned from her I think.

I thought her ethos was that children of colour were being failed elsewhere and her school allows them and indeed all children to fulfil their true potential

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 17:44

A Freedom of Information request to The Guardian confirms a ludicrous proportion of the intake achieving outstanding results in Year 6 - results which have no equivalence at mainstream schools.

Have you got a link because looking at their recent Y11 cohort there seems to be a decent chunk of kids who only achieved average results in their SATs.

To not understand why Katharine Birbalsingh is so controversial
BeCalmNavyDreamer · 23/02/2025 17:51

She is good at getting GCSE results and the league tables game. That does not equate to a good education for many children. It's just that it's better than a crap education.
If you look at private school offers, there's a massive focus on arts, sports, etc so she is definitely not providing an exceptional or elite education.

cooljerk · 23/02/2025 17:53

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 17:44

A Freedom of Information request to The Guardian confirms a ludicrous proportion of the intake achieving outstanding results in Year 6 - results which have no equivalence at mainstream schools.

Have you got a link because looking at their recent Y11 cohort there seems to be a decent chunk of kids who only achieved average results in their SATs.

From the Freedom of Information site (Whatdotheyknow.com)

"We have got KS2 results for 118/130 pupils in this year’s year 7 cohort.
Of those results, 14% (17) are under 100 in English (Reading) and 7% (8)
are under 100 in maths."

But really, if you are awake, it's obvious that they are selecting.

cooljerk · 23/02/2025 17:56

noblegiraffe · 23/02/2025 17:44

A Freedom of Information request to The Guardian confirms a ludicrous proportion of the intake achieving outstanding results in Year 6 - results which have no equivalence at mainstream schools.

Have you got a link because looking at their recent Y11 cohort there seems to be a decent chunk of kids who only achieved average results in their SATs.

Also, as a PP said, her secondary school was tiny, with only 750 on roll (which includes a sixth form).

She's not inspirational, as she proclaims to be. She created an environment which gave her every advantage to succeed.