To think 10 days off seems a lot in term time?

[winterwonder1]

Call for school term-time holiday fines to be cancelled | Weston Mercury

I don't agree with fines and I think it should be down to more discretion (from both parents and teachers), but I think the campaign might get more support if they'd said 5 days instead?

It's very frustrating that headteachers' discretion - and discretion whether or not to refer to the LAs - has now been removed. One of my DDs has Down's syndrome which means peak season holidays can be challenging, stressful for us (she can be a runner) and mean that she's less likely to engage with and enjoy things like ents and mini discos etc. We have taken term time holidays in the past when one headteacher has not authorised (but not referred for a fine) and another did authorise as reasonable adjustments. This year we're going with a couple of holidays in the school holidays. How successful they are will determine whether we go back to term time trips (and taking any fines on the nose) next year.

I don't work in a term time role, university teaching and research roles don't work like that. We just can't take leave when the undergrad/postgrad teaching is, ie termtime. The long vacation is not a vacation for staff, just time to focus more on the other aspects of our work.

My point about not taking a termtime holiday in jobs where you had to plan ahead is really that it's double brass neck/entitlement to be thinking that you could both take your child out of school for a holiday and plan to do so well in advance.

Another group who wouldn't take their kids out would be those not wanting to be seen as rule breakers. A lawyer I know most definitely wouldn't and also won't pay builders etc. in cash or without an invoice.

Gosh, I grew up in the 70s and the concept of a term time holiday wasn't something I ever encountered. Holidays were not so expensive then and people had a different attitude to school.

Ok, I see what you mean about your hours. The point stands though. Different sectors have different times when leave is and isn't available. In your case, you can't go during teaching periods. In other cases, that's the only time they might be able to go. Not sure about the brass neck point though, does this mean people in say the armed forces should be restricted to last minute deals only?

Armed forces? You've lost me. If they are a special case then there's maybe a case for special arrangements. I would have thought if one parent was on a tour of duty and the other not, then the one on duty just isn't available for a holiday.

We don't get fined in Scotland however my daughters school moans at us taking her out for 2 weeks every year as we aren't "restricted to certain times due to our job" when actually we are. DH can't take holidays June, July or August. So when are we meant to go on holiday? Or just never bother?

It isn't just taking your children on holiday. It's any unauthorised absence so if there are parents who just can't be bothered to take their kids in they also get fined if they miss 5days. (There are parents like this - if it's raining I will have at least 3 kids absent)

Also schools are marked by their attendance. It is part of an ofsted assessment. So schools need to do something to keep kids in school or they face a poor judgement.

The trouble with term time holidays is that it leaves no room for issues such as illness.
My current class has several kids with less than 75% attendance. Much of this is due to unavoidable illness. Unfortunately they’ve also all had at least a week away on holiday. This compounds the issue and makes for appalling attendance figures.

10 days is 2 weeks.

I had 1-2 weeks off school most years growing up for a family holiday.
Dad had factory shutdown which was always term time, so it was a holiday then or not at all. We never went abroad, it was just uk based holidays often in a caravan or small cottage by the sea, sometimes camping.

All three of us grew up still valuing education. We all got good exam results, all got good degrees and all have professional jobs. I work in education, so value school education a great deal.

But for the average child a two week family holiday, even in term time, isn't going to be damaging to their education. We rarely missed school for any other reason and were fortunate enough to be well and healthy as children.

Fines don't currently work.

In many areas of the country term time absence has increased steadily since they were introduced.

I don’t agree with fines at all. Yes kids need to be in school but there are always grey areas. Some families have caring responsibilities and can only have a holiday when they can get respite, some families have jobs where holidays in the school holidays are nearly impossible, others simply can’t afford the price. I just wish we would get back to a bit of common sense where the school can make decision based on the facts

Armed forces is an example of a job where your leave is restricted and you can't necessarily choose to have it in school holidays, so it may be that a family's only opportunity for a holiday is during term time. There are others. I agree with you that these are special situations.

Not just that, but they also suck up resources that aren't then available for anything else and they can damage relationships between schools and parents.

No. We’re allowed ten holiday days. Sickness is separate. So schools will automatically authorise ten days for family holiday.
There’s no allowance in y10/11, during gcse years.

Are figures really a problem in themselves though? My friend's DC has had v low attendance due to a serious illness but is actually ahead because they completed more work in hospital than in class.

They can be. At least one of them is definitely struggling a bit academically as they have missed a far bit and another is so socially. They are really finding it hard to make and maintain friendships as they’re away so much and at this age the kids move on to someone new pretty quickly leaving them to have to start all over again.
I’m not sure that long term, one bad years attendance is a big problem but it can if it happens over and over.
And a child on holiday isn’t doing any work to make them ‘ahead’.
I’m not completely against term time holiday but it’s not always as straight forward as it seems.

Weddings in our case is ONLY if it is parents wedding. No time off for a family wedding.

I hope not 😆 DH got straight As and a degree, I pulled 5 Cs at GCSE without revision and an exceptionally poor attendance rate and we both ended up in the same job earning 40k a year. Both bright but with different home lives.

I hope DS pulls better grades than I did (and he should given what weve seen so far) but I still think he can take a week off here and there because we put in the work at home. I think we can agree that education is important but I think we disagree that attendance is the deciding factor in achievement. We do loads of extra work at home already, in addition to mandatory homework, which is why DS is excelling and a week off won't harm his chances.

School has a holiday form to fill in and there’s a code in the register for holiday.

And the last week before Christmas and summer is usually a joke with no learning going on. Which is fine, but let's not pretend that students entire success rests on 100% productive attendance and thst there is no nuance.

I actually don't recall what went on at senior school as we never went on holiday during that period of my life, but a holiday form was definitely a thing in primary school. When I was at primary school, my DF used to take a week off work in May so he had to complete a holiday form for me. We only went away on holiday twice; the other times we just went out for days.

This will never be upheld under the new ofsted framework where schools are graded based on results and attendance. Many school leaders and teachers don't agree with the fines in principle, but when their ability to keep a roof over their own family's heads is potentially compromised, how can they support this? Fines haven't worked, the figures speak for themselves. There are too many issues in education and issues in society affecting attitudes towards education and parenting which has almost created a barrier between schools and parents. In order for schools to fully support time off for holidays parents need to be fighting for:

1. Attendance to have no impact on school inspection criteria or league tabling provided the school is doing its due diligence around safeguarding.
2. Progress 8 to be replaced with attainment 8 and for sats scores to not be used as the key indicator of a good education at primary.
3. Staff wellbeing in that if a child goes on holiday, staff are not being sent demanding emails from parents asking for work or opportunities at lunchtime to catch up.

There's no point in comparing it to other countries or the 70s when expectations and pressures on schools and individual teachers are not the same.

Can I just make it abundantly clear that this is not a question of ‘teacher discretion’. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a child’s class teacher and everything to do with government, local authority and school policies. Sick of teachers being dragged into this argument when they have absolutely no say in the matter.

Teachers have zero control over government policy. People need to write to their MP about it for changes to take place.
some people say that holidays are educational but then literally stay in the all inclusive resort for a week!

pay the fine. It’s cheaper than the cost in school holidays so just save a bit more to cover it. You are often saving £££££

don’t ask teachers to send work home as the learning is in school. It’s your job to help them catch up if you take them out for holiday.

Amen to this. We are the same. Take reading books etc with us ask the teacher if anything we can do. We have yet to be fined by taking him out of school. I just think this has shit everyone up but where we live I don't know anyone that's been fined even at other local schools..our school thankfully are very pro everything else and it's a lovely school. It has not stopped or prohibited my childs learning in the slightest. He loves the experience, learning snippets of new culture, geography etc. I personally agree, hate the current system and one of the reasons we are looking to move countries. There is much more to life than a blanket education which involves a basic level of education and they all pretty come much come out as sheep at the end of it. Nothing against teachers etc they do their best with what they have, just saying there's more to life. His attendance, attitude and behaviour is great,