To say my child has no empathy?

[dm97]

I'm seriously concerned about my 5 year old and desperately need advice from others who may have been in a similar situation.

For some background, he has an official diagnosis of autism (diagnosed at 3) and we highly suspect he also has ADHD.

Anyway, for. the past few weeks we have been really struggling with his behaviour, particularly at night time. When we sit down at night as a family after tea time about an hour or so before bedtime, it's like something changes in him. He becomes extremely hyper active, giddy and lashes out at my other son who only 1. If one of us is holding the baby, he will come over and deliberately try to hurt him and make him cry. If we tell him no he just does it even more and laughs when DS2 cries. I'm worried that he has absolutely no empathy and gets joy out of hurting others.

I'm not sure if it's jealousy that is causing this, but we are honestly at wits end with this terrible behaviour and it's really putting a strain on our home life and our youngest is becoming terrified of his older brother.

Does anybody have any advice as to what we can do to stop him from being like this? We have tried things such as reducing screen time (suspect this is a big contributor to his hyperactivity), doing activities with him 1 on 1 etc.

Also I am obviously aware that he doesn't feel emotions the same as an NT person would but I would like him to understand that hurting people is just not acceptable

"I would like him to understand that hurting people is just not acceptable"

Could you give an idea as to what sort of things you've already done to help him to understand this?

If you know he's acting up at a specific time, could it be that you change things so rather than sit down, take him out for a walk or a bath?

@holycrumpet I've tried to explain the consequences of hurting his brother but he just doesn't understand and I'm not sure anything else would work

It doesn't sound unusual to me, he can't put him self in the babies shoes and in his hyper state is probably just enjoying all the noise and 'excitement' he creates. Is he getting over tired by that point do you think? that can often cause this hyper behaviour, maybe putting him to bed an hour earlier would be the answer, What is he having for dinner? I would make sure he has nothing sugary or white carbs that might give him an energy spike.

If none of that is the answer then I would just make sure he is kept away from his brother at this time. What are you doing when you sit down together as a family? Maybe instead take him off for a play in the bath, or one of you play a fun game with him while the other has the baby, have a dance party with him to burn some energy, anything to distract him that he'll find more fun than setting off his sibling.

Don't give him the chance to hurt his brother then you don't have to worry about him understanding what he's doing. He just isn't able to do that at the moment.

The good news is that empathy can be taught. I'm not sure regarding the how with a child with ASD but reach out to SEND networks in your area who will be able to help.

My DD (suspected high functioning ASD) was like that at that aged but is now a fully empathetic 12 year old. We modelled, reinforced and even role played.

You need to stop allowing him to hurt the baby. You know what he's like,
you can anticipate what he's going to do so step in before it happens and redirect him.

What time of night is this happening? Maybe its too late for him and he needs to go to bead earlier, sometimes over tiredness can have children that age acting like that. I would experiment with getting him off to bed an hour earlier, even if its just to give the rest of the family a beak from this behaviour.

It's happening from around 6pm. Over tiredness could be a thing actually as he is a terrible sleeper and wakes at the crack of dawn everyday. Perhaps I'll try taking him off to do some other activity around the time the behaviour starts.

I must admit his diet isn't the best but it's very restricted as he'll only eat certain things. If we don't offer what he likes he just wouldn't eat and obviously I want him to have a proper meal before bed

Oh and DS (ASD) went through a lovely stage of tripping children over and enjoying watching them go flying when he was young - he loved slapstick/circus clowns and couldn't see the difference. He's a normal adult now. Just keep being clear about 'ow that hurts your brother' and if he falls or hurts himself use the same language so he in time hopefully links the two.

He goes to bed between 7:30-8:15pm

DS was always an early riser no matter what and always had a very early bedtime. Even as a teen he was in bed at 9, he just couldn't function else.

Maybe sensory seeking behaviour?
Look up sensory circuits. He might need some way to help him reconnect with himself - children with ADHD sometimes need a different way to wind down.
Pressure massage/play might help too.

It sounds like attention seeking behaviour- could this be the case? Can you divide and conquer - one of you takes the baby into another room and the other sits down and does something with him - read stories or colouring or watch a fave tv programme?

I recognise this behaviour with my ASD +/- ADHD DS.

Im not sure it’s a lack of empathy thing. When regulated, DS can be empathetic. But this behaviour is always a sign he is dysregulated. He doesn’t really show dysregulation by meltdowns. He becomes hyper, physical, short fused, sensory seeking and dopamine seeking. Evenings are difficult for any child (NT or ND). They are tired, stimulated and preparing for a big transition (awake —> asleep).

At the first sign of this we try and get DS moving in all directions. Either crashing around on the peanut ball or the trampoline. If he’s not interested in that, sometimes intense 1:1 play with something that gives dopamine (Lego, a tricky puzzle) will work. It doesn’t always succeed and on those occasions the only thing you can do is physical separation.

I have a 4yo DD with presumed autism/sensory processing issues and she is a complete mess from dinner time onwards each day. For her this looks different to how it looks with your son (dangerous behaviours like swinging on the stair gate, climbing the bookcase, lots of crying and making noise on purpose). I suspect that the hurting your baby is incidental and he's actually just exhausted and overwhelmed from the day like my DD and it means he does the first thing that comes into his head...

Probably overtired. My ds can all of a sudden go really really hyper towards the tail end of the day, absolutely hysterical running around mad laughing, but you know it'll easy flip into anger and tears.
Solved it by winding down for bed alot earlier, drastically cutting down on screens and sugar, lots of bedtime stories and cuddles. You could actually take him up for bed at 6pm and spend half an hour just cuddling / reading / being calm and hopefully have him asleep for 7pm x

My son has adhd. He often gets what we call the zoomies just after dinner. I think the combination of managing everything all day with sitting at the table is difficult for him. Just about to try and wobble cushion on his chair, also have the elastic bands to go around the chair legs to bounce his feet on. The reason I am trying these is because he needs to move. If I don't plan an activity, as in ake sure it is safe for him and his little sister, it all goes a bit haywire and ends up with someone getting hurt or something broken.

We dribble a ball around cones down the hallway, play fight with me, row, row, row you boat, dance parties, press ups and star jumps challenges, I have a wobble board the kids are trying to get better at. Pretty much, lean in to movement. It really helps with bedtime. We usually end up in fits of laughter so it's helped us as a family too. I haven't been doing it as often recently so this has made me remember how well it worked. 10/15mins worked well, just before our bedtime routine.

Two dc with autism - honestly, ND aside it's just behavioural training at this age. If you cross a red line, a consequence happens.

Yes join some groups and seek advice - I know it's really hard when you're on your own with two but we always found separating them essential in these flashpoints.

And @BookArt55 is spot on - a lot of sensory OT will tell you things like this. You need to adapt your routine essentially.

So children this young don't really experience empathy in the same way. To experience empathy you need to be able to put yourself in their shoes and kind of 'feel' their pain.

Probably an odd example I've whacked my knee before on the corner of a table and wanted nothing more than to scream and cry (those kind of knocks where it really hits a nerve) , but very few children in a reception class would recognise this and ask if I was OK or anything. They simply don't work that way yet.

I would expect a child acting out like this to not really be understanding what he's doing yet he just knows it gets a reaction.

7.30-8.15 is late to bed for a 5 year old I think.

id start putting him to bed for 7pm and see if things improve

in the meantime, he must not be allowed opportunity to hurt his brother

@Temporaryname158 Do you think? That's quite early in comparison going off what some parents of other children we know say

To my mind he is feeling a particular way that he can’t express in a safe way.

Could either you or your husband take him for a walk or to the garden after his tea to “burn off” any energy before bed?

You could alap show and tell “safe” ways of exploring anger and frustration like throwing soft things in the garden?

If he is autistic you defo need to break the “routine” of hurting his brother, and show him a better way to express how is he feeling.

What about a social story? You could speak to his teacher and see if school has something they could lend you.