To say my child has no empathy?

[dm97]

I'm seriously concerned about my 5 year old and desperately need advice from others who may have been in a similar situation.

For some background, he has an official diagnosis of autism (diagnosed at 3) and we highly suspect he also has ADHD.

Anyway, for. the past few weeks we have been really struggling with his behaviour, particularly at night time. When we sit down at night as a family after tea time about an hour or so before bedtime, it's like something changes in him. He becomes extremely hyper active, giddy and lashes out at my other son who only 1. If one of us is holding the baby, he will come over and deliberately try to hurt him and make him cry. If we tell him no he just does it even more and laughs when DS2 cries. I'm worried that he has absolutely no empathy and gets joy out of hurting others.

I'm not sure if it's jealousy that is causing this, but we are honestly at wits end with this terrible behaviour and it's really putting a strain on our home life and our youngest is becoming terrified of his older brother.

Does anybody have any advice as to what we can do to stop him from being like this? We have tried things such as reducing screen time (suspect this is a big contributor to his hyperactivity), doing activities with him 1 on 1 etc.

Sounds just like my 4 year old, gets hyper beforebedtime when he's overtired. Also goes for his brother and says it's funny. He likes the reaction and attention it gathers. We've found consquences helpful for managing behaviour. Ignoring can help too but obv not possible if baby is in danger.

We spend time talking about feelings and emotions (not at the time but next day when not overtired), using games and books to help develop his empathy and understanding of others internal worlds. There are some good resources out there. He's not SEN though so I don't know if there are other specific approaches to take in your instance.

3 adhders and one combo diagnosis for kids. We had to teach empathy to our first. It's didn't come naturally at all. We did lots role pay, social stories, etc. It did work. He might not truly understand why people feel like that be he understand they do and it's not appropriate

At this age it's just going with what your child needs. Once my youngest gets started school he was so exhausted that at 5 he was going to sleep around 6.30pm. I think an earlier bedtime is your first step to exploring what will work best.

I don’t think many 5 year olds are big on empathy, tbh. They’re just beginning to realise that the world doesn’t revolve around them. Most will be starting to demonstrate learned empathetic behaviours, but there’s still a lot of egocentricity under the surface!

It’s pure sibling rivalry, it will get better but it’ll take awhile. When your other son gets older he will defend himself. Brothers are known for it. It happened with my eldest and second eldest brothers. They are now best friends

There's quite a lot of misunderstanding around autism and empathy. Many autistic people have as much empathy as the next person, what they struggle to do is understand other people's emotions from their expression or tone of voice (over reliance on words) or express the empathy / emotions they are in fact feeling appropriately or indeed at all.

My youngest is autistic and I can rarely work out what he's feeling by looking at him, he needs to tell me - and that itself can be problematic because alexithemia. So he can come across as far less empathetic than he actually is.

It's also pretty common for small children (and 5 is small) to hurt siblings as a way of gaining parental attention or expressing disapproval. You just need to work with him to find better ways of doing that.

Children don't have empathy until after 8. What parents see as empathy is them mimicking adults who have modelled it to them well.

Don't worry

Children don't really develop empathy until age 8 ish, they are also biologically designed to be the selfish and put their own interests first, they really are the centre of their own world. Kids are a bit like dogs with after dinner zoomies . Honestly
He sounds like a pretty normal 5 year old. Hard work.

Get rid of the screens. He is 3, way too young for them and it sounds like he can't cope with them anyway.
He needs firm consequences for hurting his baby brother.

I think you might have overly high expectations of a 5 year old. They need to be TAUGHT empathy, as it is not innate and usually isn’t demonstrated in children until they are a bit older. At 5 they are usually stuck in the ‘fairness’ mode (right/wrong) but this is often framed around what serves them personally, rather than understanding the wider social context of a group. This link is quite useful in explaining it. I’d also be wary of dismissing lack of empathy as an ND trait - my entire family are autistic, most of us with a side helping of ADHD. My children were unable to get through the first 5 mins of Finding Nemo due to utter devastation at his losing his mother so it and films like it were not viewed until they were much much older. I cry every time I watch the programme where they try to match the Wood Green dogs to new homes. Sob, in fact. Lack of empathy is not an ND trait, only the ability to process strong emotions, to filter and understand them, such that sometime an ND person may emotionally freeze and seem unempathetic because they lack the social repertoire to respond appropriately.

https://www.babycenter.com/child/parenting-strategies/the-caring-child-how-to-teach-empathy-age-5_67146

Highly suggest you read up on PDA or pathological demand avoidance. It's a profile of autism. Have a look at "at peace parents" on Instagram/Facebook.

Best evening of my life when had all in bed at 6pm, all under 5, eldest since diagnosed ADHD.

10/13 hours a day sleep recommended for under 5 years including naps.

Just going to add, if he is ND, then it might be best to consider what emotions he is actually trying to process - if he’s been at school all day, perhaps he is actually seeking your undivided attention? There could be some jealousy in there, in that he’s had to socially mask and be good all day long and comes home seeking the refuge of home and your attention, but then has to share you with his baby sibling. Add into that the normal expected level of end of day tiredness and whack it up a notch to 20 because he is ND and you have a minefield to navigate - for both you and him.

Can you restructure evenings - feed the baby earlier/alone while DS is watching his favourite tv show, then give him his tea on his own with just you focusing on him?

Yes 100%. My 5yo has to be in bed by 7 or everything descends into chaos!!

My youngest son is autistic and doesn't show any signs of empathy yet, but hasn't yet tried to actively hurt someone - BUT his older brother (2nd youngest of 4) hasn't had any ND diagnosis and showed zero empathy until around 9. He was actively disgusted by children crying because they were hurt (if they'd fallen over etc.) and I was very concerned. He grew out of it though, and is now a kind, considerate 12 year old. I completely understand your fears. At the points that your child is disregulated, keep them away from your baby and make sure he has a parent one in one, where possible. It must be incredibly hard for you all, but hopefully this will be a phase you can come through. Keep him physically active when he's disregulated and keep him to a timetable when he knows exactly what is happening at what time, with prior warning - for example, it's bed time in 30 mins, 20 mins etc. it's worked well for my autistic son as he knows exactly what is happening and what to expect.

5 year olds don’t have empathy. He’s just found the one thing that gets him the most attention instantly. You’re absolutely wasting your breath explaining calmly - a 5 year old’s brain isn’t that developed. Both my kids were instantly removed from the room if they hurt anyone, one ND and one NT. If you aren’t completely clear about what’s right or wrong, they can end up hitting kids at school and struggling with friendships.

That's definitely quite late.

I was taught when doing my development training to do the 11 hour rule.
So 11 hours after they wake up, you should begin winding down and doing bath routine.
12 hours after they have woken up they should be in bed, ready to go to sleep (or ideally asleep).

This advice was until the age of 6, if I am remembering correctly.

PP is correct that around 13 hours of sleep including naps is ideal at his age.

Not all children need such a routine, but he does sound over tired to me.

@YouDeserveBetterSoAskForIt He's been awake since 5am this morning so I'm not sure that rule will work!

However I am going to try winding him down earlier tonight and spending some time in his bedroom reading/playing before bedtime

I was just thinking the same as our toddler was up at 5.30 and definitely not ready for bath at 4.30 pm - when would she have tea?!

Don't worry about empathy now. Just be proactive: you know what will happen in the evening so make sure younger dc is protected : make sure he can't get to him. If he does take him away quickly and just say no. All emotional learning has to be done when he is receptive ;not in the evening.

He probably thinks his brother looks funny when he cries that's why he does it and that's why he laughs. Empathy is all about understanding how the other person feels whereas that is really difficult for ASD people.

Sounds like a super late bedtime for a 5 year old! My DSD (9) starts winding down at 8.15 in bed with a book. He needs to be doing soothing/relaxing things after dinner.. what are you doing when you all sit down as a family? Watching TV will wind him up and being expected to be quiet and behave will just make things worse. You need a new routine. Good suggestion earlier re sensory integration techniques at the dinner table that will help him to not suddenly get the zoomies. I'd suggest a new routine for after dinner... can he have a bath with toys and then straight into PJs and into bed with a book or audio book by 7pm. If he seems too wound up for that, maybe play an energetic game straight after dinner - like a 10 minute dance party - and then into bath and bed. It will take a while to get into a new routine but persevere.

The hurting baby brother isn't on purpose, he is over stimulated and overtired.

I think some young autistic children or autistic children with learning disabilities don't quite understand babies are people. My son definitely doesn't.

It's hard to say in your exact circumstances what is going on but I wouldn't necessarily rush to the conclusion that your 5 year old is a psychopath without empathy.

Oh and obviously it's difficult but as PP said, in meantime you have to ensure there is never an opportunity for him to hurt your baby.

I suspect your son is overtired, especially if he's waking at 5.30 am. He's been at school all day, which makes children tired, and by the time teatime is over and you have family time, he's shattered. When children are tired, they become overexcited and hyperactive much more easily. If your son is ND, they can't always regulate their emotions. He may be excited to have family time, but yes, there could very well be some jealousy towards his brother. You must have some idea when his aggressive behaviour towards his brother is triggered? Therefore remove him from the situation. Children at 5, aren't particularly empathetic, they tend to be self-centred. All children are different, and not all need as much sleep as other children the same age. However, try putting your son to bed around 7 pm - personally I think 7.30-8.15 pm is late for a 5 year old. God, if I'd have put my son to bed at 7.30 pm at 5, he'd had never coped at school!! He does need his sleep though!! Still does, and he's 14!! 😂

I think at three it's far too young to come up with this evaluation. Children are ego centric until they are at least five. My sister n for example bites toes, he thinks it's hilarious but he has no concept that this hurts another person, he has a developmental age of 2. So I teach him that this hurts and isn't right thing to do. He will take time to understand this message, but it absolutely doesn't mean in later life he will be devoid of empathy.

Your son is showing signs of insecurity and he is lashing out, it's a tough age (I feel like I'm drowning currently, my son is 3 1/2 but because of his global delay this phase is going to last a lot longer) but just keep persevering, showing him the right way, explaining simply how his actions hurt others.