Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
84
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 07:54

@oddandelsewhere really ? Calling me a racist is pretty pathetic. But again, when you can't debate the facts, you just become abusive. Usually a sign you are losing the argument.

And yes, some UK trained doctors (many of whom are foreigners) get some jobs. But many don't. Because the influx from abroad is now a tidal wave. Or can't you understand simple graphs (see I can do it too). Why invest in training doctors if we are only going go employ more from abroad ?

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 07:55

The archive link to today's FT article.

https://archive.ph/8B3qt

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 07:55

@OneMorePiece I assume the FT is racist too 😁

OneMorePiece · 18/02/2025 08:06

For non-believers

uk.news.yahoo.com/competition-training-roles-putting-immense-000100209.html

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:11

Well well well. Maybe it's not 'just' us mums - maybe there are people who understand facts

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 08:25

As far as I can see neither the FT article nor the Yahoo one blames foreign trained doctors for the current situation, that seems to be a problem for the very invested mothers on this site.
The problem seems to be that we have more medical graduates than there are jobs for, rather like law. No one as far as I know bemoans the waste of the cost of educating lawyers who then fail to find a job in law.
Perhaps we need to stop expanding medical school places until we can actually afford to employ more doctors, and explain to junior doctors that the employment structure in medicine has always been pyramidical, with far more at the bottom than the top. The pyramid may be steeper at the moment, but it always was the brightest and most driven who made it to the top.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:52

@oddandelsewhere read it more carefully. Along with these. It's v v simple. You train doctors to employ them.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:54

@oddandelsewhere as can clearly be seen, we gave approx 12,000 UK graduates for approx. 12,000 training places. It's almost like that was the idea !

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 08:54

@oddandelsewhere oh and lawyers are not paid for by the taxpayer.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 08:56

What is your evidence for 'lots'?

I did not use the term 'lazy'. You've introduced that term all by yourself. It does sound as though some of these young people need to be more pro-active though and to stop complaining about being too overwhelmed with work that their ability to compete is compromised.

I do strongly agree that the brightest and most driven have always been the ones to make it to the top which is why the die is probably cast early on and expanding medical school places to take in additional but less able applicants is a pretty flawed idea.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:02

Ah those 'brightest and driven'. So doctors not getting into jobs this year are thick and lazy. How sweet some people are. And ignorant.

Nothing to do with brightest or best - top of their year at Cambs a few years ago ? Not got into anaesthetics as score not high enough. Or IMT because having 2 published papers, being on several committees and part of teaching group did not gain enough portfolio points. I'll make sure to tell them they are just a bit thick and lazy.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:02

That was in response to this by mumsneedwine:

how you take away from this that it's the F2s being too lazy is beyond me. Lots have asked about jobs and lots of consultants have tried to make them one, like in previous years. But this year the answer is no. Because the NHS would rather hire non doctors

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:05

Posts are crossed because I failed to quote.

mumsneedwine so the person who was top of the year overall at Cambridge two years ago has just failed to get an anaesthetics interview? Interesting.

Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 09:05

Good to have the articles but I worry a little about the focus on training places.

Access to training and the arms race in terms of points required is one issue.

Potential unemployment is another. Because of the sharp rise in applicants, an awful lot of F2s did not get through the exams needed to be considered for training places. They need jobs. It has always been common for newly qualified doctors to have to apply more than once.

Then there are others. Those who decided to take an F3 in order to prepare an application. Those who don't want to climb the consultant pyramid who in the past worked in jobs now given to PAs. Those, perhaps recruited from overseas who are coming to the end of a fixed term contract.

I don't really follow the argument that we are training more doctors than we have jobs for, when we are clearly recruiting large numbers from overseas. The problems seem to be:

  • there is no resident priority for those jobs where there are already sufficient good quality applicants in the UK.
  • we lack the pathways that enable newly qualified doctors and those already in the UK to acquire the skills in areas where we have a shortage.

I note the reference to burn out. Some of our "friends" keep using the word "lazy" for those who have not made it through the tough competition. From what I have observed some that do are at real risk of burn out or of waking up one morning and deciding that it is not worth it.

I also wonder about the different loading of F1/F2 jobs. There seems to be a huge variation between deaneries and then different contracts in the different nations that make up the UK. One consultant on here suggested that their F1s don't do nights. That is certainly not the case elsewhere, nor is that case that contracts or pay are uniform. F1/F2 posts are now allocated. In the past you could decide. Take a heavily loaded F1/F2, gain lots of experience and then an F3. Or to look for more lightly loaded rotations in deaneries that, say, did not require nights and prepare your training application during F2. No choice now. The allocation affects the hours you work, your shift pattern, the responsibility and experience you get, and your pay. Something seems wrong. .

OP posts:
oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 09:06

@mumsneedwine I think the problem is the fact that doctors are paid for by the taxpayer. Most taxpayers do not want to pay more tax, and indeed cannot afford to do so. The Dept. Of Health saying they intend to employ thousands more doctors may be a laudable aim but it is not one they can afford to carry out.
You still seem to be implying that we should employ every British medical school graduate even if they are less well qualified than overseas doctors, I don't think that would improve the quality of the care available, only the quantity.
You might be able to achieve your aim by the way you vote in the next election.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:07

@oddandelsewhere what do you meant by less qualified ? All UK doctors have the same qualifications and training ?

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:09

@Auchencar I didn't say 2 years ago ? Where did you read that. He's having a coffee opposite me at the moment - believes he might know your DC !!! He's off to New Zealand as fed up of applying for jobs that have already closed. He agrees it must be because he's lazy and thick 😂.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:10

With respect Needmoresleep I think no-one other than mumsneedwine has used the term lazy. Lazy is very different from not being sufficiently pro-active.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:11

@oddandelsewhere you're missing the point. No one is asking to employ more doctors, just preference the ones we've already paid to train

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 09:14

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 09:09

@Auchencar I didn't say 2 years ago ? Where did you read that. He's having a coffee opposite me at the moment - believes he might know your DC !!! He's off to New Zealand as fed up of applying for jobs that have already closed. He agrees it must be because he's lazy and thick 😂.

Confused

By great coincidence my own DS has been with me for a week - leaves today. But here as the interview offers for anaesthetics were sent out.

oddandelsewhere · 18/02/2025 09:32

@Needmoresleep I know you're unhappy, but it is only you and your friend who are using the word'lazy'. You can't put words into other people's mouths and then blame them for it.

@mumsneedwine They might all have a degree which looks the same, but everyone will know that some Universities will accept Bs at A level, some will have widening participation aims etc. Also back in the mists of time on this thread and the previous one mention was made of publications, presentations made etc. You may not like it, but people who have done those things will be seen as better qualified.

OneMorePiece · 18/02/2025 10:20

No one here is against the employment of foreign doctors in the NHS but there has to be a balance at a time like this when there is a shortage of posts.

Given the current issues, the recruitment of more doctors from abroad for places where demand, from existing doctors (whether UK grads or IMGs already in the country), far outstrips places available should be paused. Doctors already here, including foreign doctors working in the NHS, should be prioritised for these posts ahead of newcomers from abroad.

Unfortunately, there are also currently some IMGs walking directly into speciality training from abroad without working a day in the NHS, who have then not only stuggled to cope but take up large amounts of existing staff's time to support. They are potentially a threat to patient safety unless they are closely supervised. See here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/doctorsUK/comments/1iphdd6/i_as_a_consultant_dont_have_enough_hours_to/

Note the comments from other foreign doctors on this issue.

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 18/02/2025 10:44

@oddandelsewhere

"Presumably", "presumably "

Transcontinentalcyclist · 18/02/2025 10:46

mumsneedwine · 17/02/2025 21:09

That article is not about the current situation, it is from 2007 and refers to the chaos caused by Modernising Medical Careers (MMC) which was another training & recruitment debacle from the then-government and the NHS.

I've been a doctor for over 30 years and a consultant for around 15. With the benefit of hindsight there have been recruitment & training upheavals approximately every 15-20 years as someone new comes along and thinks they have the solution. In the late 80s/early 90s it was how to address the "lost tribe" of what were then senior house officers (SHOs - FY2 seniority and upwards) primarily used for service provision with fragmented stand-alone jobs and no training scheme or continuity of training. There was also a bottleneck of SRs (the old senior registrar grade) unable to progress to consultant. In 2007 it was MMC which worked out well for some but was catastrophic for others who had to reapply for their own jobs and some weren't successful. Now it is the expansion of applicant numbers for both FY and CT/ST entry without the corresponding increase in available posts.
My observation of the past situations is that things have tended to settle down into a new normal after a while so it's possible that the current situation will also resolve to some extent. However the overall NHS working environment has deteriorated so much during my time working in it that I don't hold out much hope for job security and choice of jobs for future doctors and medical students. I fear that the political direction of travel will favour larger amounts of a less specialised, and therefore cheaper to employ, workforce. Whether this would be doctors or other health care professionals remains to be seen. I hope I'm wrong and that there is a bright future for the medical students and resident doctors of today.

Clavinova · 18/02/2025 11:03

mumsneedwine
read it more carefully. Along with these. It's v v simple

To be fair, the Yahoo article says;

This is a complex issue, and there are no easy answers"

oh and lawyers are not paid for by the taxpayer

Yes they are! I remember reading that one firm of solicitors received £15m in legal aid fees in one year alone. Plenty of lawyers work for the government or the local authority or win actions taken against the government/local authority. We have public inquiries, judicial reviews, lawyers who are trained to be judges and district judges, the cost of court staff who assist lawyers and judges and court sittings...

the influx from abroad is now a tidal wave

NB I wouldn't put that phrase in your letter to your MP unless her name is Suella Braverman!