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AIBU?

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AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 09:36

@Transcontinentalcyclist I felt the same. Although I am hoping it will be a v different organisation after the elections. Things are changing ....

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 09:37

www.rcp.ac.uk/policy-and-campaigns/policy-documents/interim-guidance-for-physician-associates-working-in-the-medical-specialties/

Things are halted. Leng review going to be interesting

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 09:40

because going to conferences, getting things published, doing extra courses and degrees etc costs money. And these are what gain you portfolio points to get into some training. Having the opportunity do audits can be down to who you know

This is not correct. Success in securing a training post after F2 is not related to buying anything. I think that's a concerning and misleading thing to allege.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 09:47

I may be a mum, after all we are on Mumsnet, but I am also a taxpayer.

The idea that after eight years a large number of hard working and dedicated young doctors who the taxpayer has spent a fortune educating, end up with no jobs, is shocking. The jobs are there. They used to be available to young people already here. Ours will be OK, they have the qualifications to start a new life overseas, or the resources to help them get on that first rung. The doctors who will be disproportionately affected will be those who lack the networks: family, university or gained through F1F2 at research heavy London teaching hospitals. As well as IMG/doctors returning to the workforce who face the same strong competition when it comes to looking for new contracts.

Nurses, midwives, physios, paramedics etc in the same position. Having seen a relative juggle midwifery training with being a single mum, I would be outraged if she were graduating now and had nothing to show for her efforts.

All the red flags are there for real recruitment problems down the line especially in hard to recruit regions like the North East and Scotland. Newly recruited consultants, with no experience of the NHS, are having to take leadership roles. Without DCs generation of doctors, they too will have to recruit from overseas. The NHS is no longer top choice for the skilled and experienced, so nothing to keep those without ties once they have their training. A UK medical education and F1F2 experience within the NHS needs to count for something. Or perhaps our posters don’t care. If everything is hunkydory in London why worry about the impact of Whitehall policies in Scotland.

Some advice. Not everyone on this thread is who they are. That ‘middle-class and ‘racist’ are often arguments of the intellectually weak. That anyone reading the thread and the useful contributions by several consultants will wonder about the selective reading. As for repeatedly using a thread, designed to learn more the impact about the RLMT and the bottlenecks hindering the career progression of young health care professionals, to stealth boast about your own DC’s career progression is starting to sound a bit unhinged. It’s nice they are doing well. But we are now two decades on from the primary school gates. Boasting then about little Johnny being top table might have been just about OK. Not now.

(As an aside on the ‘middle-class’ jibe I once fought to save a park in an inner city where 93% of household did not have gardens. The council said they would not speak to us because we were middle-class. The other mums in the playground laughed. They needed the park but were too busy fighting the council for housing repairs, benefits, school places and more. The idea that the council would speak to them on anything was unlikely.)

The current recruitment approach is wrong. Eventually priority will have to be given to those in the UK. Medical schools and other key stakeholders will insist. It will be changed eventually, but needs changing quickly. Bureaucracies, especially the NHS move slowly, unless there is political priority. We need to use our platform to help this process.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 19/02/2025 09:58

Needmoresleep I think if you're trying to make a dig at me about any mention of a DS with a medical career, check out who introduced the subject of my DS and reread everything written on this thread. It would indeed be unhinged to 'stealth boast'. I very strongly agree with that statement. If DC are able and doing well then there's no need to boast or indeed purpose in doing so. It's very tiresome that anyone introduces the subject of a DS who hasn't been mentioned by the DC's parent. That's where the lack of hinge lies. No idea why it was done. It's also unsettling to be told out of the blue that a random student knows my DC. That's beyond odd. Look elsewhere if you wish to point fingers about hinge. I'm thoroughly hinged.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 09:59

Please keep to the thread topic. It is important.

You may not see a problem. Others do.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 19/02/2025 10:05

I see a problem ok.

If you want to keep to the thread topic please don't be unjustifiably snide and re-read to see which poster introduced off topic comments about previously not mentioned DC.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:07

So let's now all be grown ups and keep the thread on topic with no personal comments. Deal ?

It's about this. Lack of employment for doctors and nurses (& other AHPs). When the NHS needs them more than ever.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 19/02/2025 10:16

One has to appreciate the irony.

It would be refreshing not to have any more personal attacks though, either directed at posters or (even weirder) their not yet mentioned DC. So yes please, good plan.

oddandelsewhere · 19/02/2025 10:17

Gently, @mumsneedwine the best doctors really do need to pass exams. They have to have a good memory and knowledge in order to make diagnoses. Empathy might be good but will only take you so far (and not,thankfully,) into any job where you need to pass the MRCP.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:19

@oddandelsewhere no one says they don't have to pass exams ? But currently to get into IMT training you needed to get in top 15% of all scores. 92% of people 'passed' (git above 194). It's down to such fine margins now that extra edge is required.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:20

@oddandelsewhere everyone who can pass MRCP can become a member. Not everyone who passes MSRA can get on the ladder to become a member.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:22

This. Most of these applicants will have passed the exam and have fantastic portfolios. But because competition is now ridiculous that is no longer enough.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:23

Partly because of this. It affects existing staff who came here as IMGs in good faith and now face unemployment

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:26

Because WP is my thing and it is importantly to have the full picture of why the current situation disadvantages some more than others.

This conference would have got you 3 points. If you factor in travel and accommodation you are talking about £600+. To enhance your portfolio 🤷‍♀️. And no. The NHS does not fund any of it.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
oddandelsewhere · 19/02/2025 10:32

@mumsneedwine I think this is where we fundamentally differ. Personally I would like anyone treating me to have been in the top 15%.
I think MSRA only measures basic competency? On your graph when you say everyone has passed the exam is that the one you mean?

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:36

@oddandelsewhere are you aware that the MSRA has 2 questions on Obs and Gynae. But is used to shortlist for Obs and gynae ? And half of it is an SJT that most doctors agree is a guessing game.

I'd rather have a doctor who has shown they really want to do ons and gynae, had shown skill doing the job and had great feedback from colleagues and patients.

Other specialities are exactly the same.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:38

And the graphs show applicants so assuming only a few fail the MSRA the UK ones will have passed it.

mumsneedwine · 19/02/2025 10:38

I've been told there were 5 anaesthetics questions. It's an exam that was meant for GPs.

Needmoresleep · 19/02/2025 12:39

I have just received this from my MP.

"Many thanks for sending me through your thoughts about the scrapping of the Resident Labour Market Test. I have asked my office to research into this and once they’ve done that, I shall seek to raise it with the responsible minister. I am therefore grateful to you for bringing this to my attention, as I was unaware of this issue."

And this is a (Labour) MP who has always had a deep interest in workers rights and the labour market.

By the weekend I will try to have some key points people might make in letters. And a list of people who might be worth writing to. People who may not yet be aware of the problem and the implications, but who could be active allies if they were.

Unusually it should not be a party political problem. Kemi has already suggested that Boris got it wrong, and in the process slapped Priti down. Labour care about the future of the NHS. Neither will want this issue falling into the hands of Reform.

Other Nations within the United Kingdom should be equally interested in lobbying Westminster. Traditionally, if F1 preferences are anything to go by, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have more recruitment problems than the rest of the UK. If training paths are dominated by either doctors from overseas or highly ambitious and academic doctors who have travelled through the Oxbridge/London pathway, what chance has Eamonn from Enniskillen. He might have been top of his class at school, been in the top 25% at Queens, had strong appraisals and be happy to spend the rest of his career as a geriatrician in Enniskillen, giving his time generously to the next generation of students and F1/F2s. Both we and he need the pathway for him to be able to do so.

OP posts:
Lovecatsanddogs · 19/02/2025 12:52

Yes my email to my local MP has also been forwarded to Wes Streeting, confirmation just received.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 13:01

Other Nations within the United Kingdom should be equally interested in lobbying Westminster. Traditionally, if F1 preferences are anything to go by, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have more recruitment problems than the rest of the UK. If training paths are dominated by either doctors from overseas or highly ambitious and academic doctors who have travelled through the Oxbridge/London pathway, what chance has Eamonn from Enniskillen. He might have been top of his class at school, been in the top 25% at Queens, had strong appraisals and be happy to spend the rest of his career as a geriatrician in Enniskillen, giving his time generously to the next generation of students and F1/F2s. Both we and he need the pathway for him to be able to do so

I suppose a flaw in that argument for anyone with in an interest in helping widening participation is that Eamonn, being from NI, is statistically far more likely to come from a well off background even than those graduating from Oxbridge.

While I fully appreciate the seriousness of the bottlenecks I'm not clear why ambition and hard work should be penalised to make way for less meritorious candidates, wherever they hail from geographically. That's leaving aside the whole IMG issue of course, but there's some inverted snobbery now showing about Oxbridge (which should really include UCL and Imperial in this context) and London training. I'm not clear why. It's not to do with background that's for sure. Ambition and hard work very definitely isn't the preserve of the middle classes, so I don't understand the problem which there seems to be with it.

Personally I would like anyone treating me to have been in the top 15%

I'm with oddandelsewhere on this.

Marchesman · 19/02/2025 13:17

OneMorePiece · 18/02/2025 23:47

Yes, a lack of empathy too. Are they as dismissive of their patients' concerns as much as they are of their junior colleagues I wonder?

Some seem to be out of touch with reality and downright rude. Feel sorry for their patients.

I am not one of the mums affected by these issues but Finally lost it should know that no one here is blaming IMGs for the problems. Just calling for a pause of new IMGs who have yet to start working in the country until the current recruitment issues are sorted. Also it's sensible to stop PLAB so that IMGs are not wasting money on it when there is no certainty that they'll get posts.

Empathy is overrated, and you should save your pity for patients of the junior doctors (sorry - expert clinicians) who instead of working went around waving "save our NHS" signs when what they really wanted was a pay rise. What a missed opportunity that was. If they were really interested in saving the NHS, they would have carried signs saying "stop waste in the NHS" and "more hospital beds please".

The reason the NHS can't retain doctors applies equally to UK and foreign graduates, and it is largely not about pay. Until those things are fixed, the health service can't be too precious about where they came from.

Auchencar · 19/02/2025 13:20

Empathy is overrated 😂That'll put the cat among the empathy pigeons!

OneMorePiece · 19/02/2025 13:21

Marchesman · 19/02/2025 13:17

Empathy is overrated, and you should save your pity for patients of the junior doctors (sorry - expert clinicians) who instead of working went around waving "save our NHS" signs when what they really wanted was a pay rise. What a missed opportunity that was. If they were really interested in saving the NHS, they would have carried signs saying "stop waste in the NHS" and "more hospital beds please".

The reason the NHS can't retain doctors applies equally to UK and foreign graduates, and it is largely not about pay. Until those things are fixed, the health service can't be too precious about where they came from.

If you think that empathy is overrated, you are clearly not a doctor.

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