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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs

795 replies

Needmoresleep · 16/02/2025 15:22

Unbelievable but true.

Doctors, nurses and other health care professionals now have to compete for jobs and training with applicants from across the world. No priority is given to those already in the country.

Even ordinary entry level jobs can attract hundreds of applicants within a few hours. Newly qualified doctors and nurses need that first job to get the experience that overseas applicants will be able to offer.

In 2021 immigration law was changed and something called the Resident Market Labour Test was dropped for health and care workers. It means that the UK may be the only country not to prioritise those already in the country.

The previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5267503-aibu-to-be-furious-that-there-are-no-jobs-for-young-doctors?page=1
included a number of stories. An entire graduating class of nurses unable to find that first job whilst administrators from the local hospital were taking recruitment trips to Asia. An experienced GP wanting to return from a career break only to discovering that she, and others in a similar position, could not find work, a consultant surprised at how well qualified locums seeking zero hours, short notice, cover work are. The number of overseas doctors applying for the limited number of specialist training positions in the UK doubled between 2023 and 2025.

A group of us, who have been on the higher education board since our DC were first applying to medical school, recently discovered that none of our DC, coming to the end of their foundation years (F1& F2) expect to get anything other than the odd shift with NHS bank. Most see moving to Australia as the only way to stay in medicine. They say the same applies to their peers.

Our young doctors have spent seven or eight years getting to where they are, and have £100,000 of student loans to repay. The taxpayer has spent £250,000 on each of them.

Unfortunately the NHS does not appear to keep data on the number of applicants per vacancy, nor on vacancies that, because of the numbers applying, close within a few hours. It also does not appear to question why such a small proportion of F2s are progressing within the NHS. Instead there seems to be an assumption that this wastage is somehow natural, and that the solution is to re-double international recruitment efforts, to increase medical school places, and to replace traditional junior doctor roles with less skilled Physician Associates. Measures that will only increase the problem.

If things are not changed, even more of our skilled and dedicated young people will find themselves without jobs. We would welcome experiences, information and ideas.

Please also spread the word, write to your MP, tell people in a position to influence who may not be aware. We have a shortage of doctors, nurses, midwives, and paramedics. Our first priority is to ensure that those already in the country are able to get jobs.

If young Doctors were asked, and the same will apply to other Health Care Professionals, they would argue that:

  • Busy F2s work long shifts including nights which makes extensive job search difficult
  • Posts often attract hundreds of applicants, and close within a few hours. This level of competition is in itself off-putting
  • Overseas applicants are often supported by agencies who can set alerts for vacancies and ensure that multiple applications are submitted. No such support is offered to UK applicants,
  • These agencies will help with the writing of applications so they score well against NHS selection criteria. Again no such careers support is offered to UK applicants.
  • The Government/NHS offer incentives for overseas doctors including bringing in dependents and scope for future citizenship, as well as some exemptions from some exams and relocation packages. These may motivate overseas doctors to apply for entry level jobs even if they are overqualified. Entry level jobs which our newly qualified young people need.
  • Various extensive and expensive courses are advertised on the internet designed to give participants an advantage when applying for specialist training in the UK. In contrast many UK medical schools do very little to ensure that their graduates have the additional academic super-curricular that, with current levels of competition, are effectively requirements to gain a training place. This year it is predicted that only 50% of the around 4,500 places will go to graduates from UK medical schools, even though it is recognised that for many UK training is simply a passport to well paid jobs in private hospitals in Singapore, Dubai or their home countries. This is poor workforce planning. If we are going to avoid a future shortage of consultants we need to prioritise those likely to build a future in the UK.
Many young doctors will see a couple of years in Australia as a reasonable fall-back. They accept that they will be taking jobs Australians don’t want and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to specialist training, but they will also be gaining experience in a different healthcare environment.

Others, including those with family or caring responsibilities, or those who brought their families over when offered fixed term contracts, simply face unemployment. We should not be recruiting overseas when we have good, qualified, NHS experienced, doctors, nurses and other HCPs in the UK driving Ubers or working in Tesco.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:33

@Auchencar you live in a different world to me. Many of my ex students went to Oxbridge (because they are cheap Unis and offer lots of bursaries) and v v few ended up back in London. They are all from London originally and it holds no prestige to them.

Cambs takes 304 students a year so I'm v impressed anyone can keep up with the lives of several years of them.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:34

@Auchencar it doesn't make any difference at all. But we are never going to agree on that as we haven't for years on here.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:37

Another handy graphic to help understanding

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:38

Keep drawing the graph upwards to see 2025. Figures are looking horrific

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:39

IMT ratios

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 18/02/2025 16:47

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 16:33

@Auchencar you live in a different world to me. Many of my ex students went to Oxbridge (because they are cheap Unis and offer lots of bursaries) and v v few ended up back in London. They are all from London originally and it holds no prestige to them.

Cambs takes 304 students a year so I'm v impressed anyone can keep up with the lives of several years of them.

mumsneedwine please stop and maybe try to have a conversation in a more thoughtful way. The majority of DC who read Medicine at Oxford or Cambridge have migrated to London for years, and they tend to keep their wide interconnected friendship groups once down there.

Interesting that you say your own ex students didn't go to London and that all are now struggling to get either a training post or JCF appointment. Perhaps it's the Oxford/ Cambridge followed by F1 and F2 in London package which produces the highest number of hits when it comes to progressing after F2? It's certainly plausible. Just trying to unscramble the tangled web of your various posts. It would make sense though, and is consistent with the 'bright and driven' comment made by an earlier poster.

Annoyeddd · 18/02/2025 17:14

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 14:18

@Annoyeddd what's your point ? Trust jobs are funded by Trusts.

Junior doctor training posts are not funded by trusts

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:16

@Annoyeddd Clinical Fellow jobs are. And there are no junior doctors. Only resident ones.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:17

@Auchencar my ex students are doing pretty well. Many stayed in Oxford and Cambridge and love live there. London is only a great city if you have money, it's hell if you're poor.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:19

Back on topic. Stats for new viewers

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:22

But mumsneedwine you have previously posted that none of your ex students have found their way through the post F2 bottleneck. There are so many contradictions in what you say. These become ever more obvious if one reads a whole thread down, as I did with the previous one in AIBU.

Could you clarify how well your ex students have done, say, in the past three years in terms of post F2 training/ JCFs? All successful?

This would be more interesting anecdata than the few F2 cited by Needmoresleep. Because you say you send lots and lots of Y13 to med school and year and many of those go to Oxford and Cambridge. I had thought none were getting through but it seems now that all have got through.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:25

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:17

@Auchencar my ex students are doing pretty well. Many stayed in Oxford and Cambridge and love live there. London is only a great city if you have money, it's hell if you're poor.

That sounds good although Oxford is the uni where the smallest number of its graduates remain for foundation training. It's also cripplingly expensive, just like London and Cambridge if you have to pay rent.

Lovecatsanddogs · 18/02/2025 17:28

Oxford and Cambridge grads can no longer guarantee going to London for their F1/F2 training now. They are all ending up in various places they didn't want to go to, due to the random allocations now.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:32

Yes of course I know that Lovecatsanddogs but as far as the current F2s are concerned the random allocation didn't bite.

It's also not completely random in the sense that preferences are listed. Slightly more got there first choice last year than in the years immediately preceding. There were some hard cases though I know.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:34

I think we are getting off topic. Wherever doctors did their undergraduate and foundation training, they are facing unemployment in August.

The jobs that were planned for them are being taken by IMGs who have often no intention of staying in the UK. The consultants of the future come from our existing staff (of whatever nationality).

We have enough, trained and willing, doctors . We have paid to train them so now we need to employ them. And the DHSC agrees.

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 17:37

Reining things in, this thread is specifically about doctors nurses and other HCPs who are facing unemployment. What needs to be done and how we can help bring the problem to government attention.

There will always be a route though for some. For example a Fife F2, currently in the news, seems to have moved seamlessly through to a Clinical Fellowship. In contrast it looks as if this summer many capable and dedicated former F2s will be without jobs.

The factors that are causing the problem are escalating. Politicians need to act quickly. Otherwise our young people, the IMGs who are already working here, our medical and nursing schools, and our health service will all suffer.

I am really grateful for the really informed contributions. As an outsider I have learned a lot, though am becoming increasingly pessimistic about whether there can be a future for the NHS.

I am putting together a list of influential people with an interest in health, who might be written to. I should have it ready in a couple of days.

OP posts:
Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:39

It's not in the least off topic to look at who is getting through the bottleneck and why mumsneedwine. Indeed it's key.

Apologies for typo in the post of 17.22. I intended to type that you say you send lots of Y13 to med school every year incl lots to Oxford and Cambridge. I'm simply confused by your conflicting statements about their success in securing employment post F2.

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:42

Even more slack was typing there rather than their :)

Annoyeddd · 18/02/2025 17:43

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:16

@Annoyeddd Clinical Fellow jobs are. And there are no junior doctors. Only resident ones.

A rose by any other name....... In real terms they are exactly the same and aren't officially residents (they may do long hours but do not actually reside at the hospital).
When they changed the system from HO, SHO, reg, SR then consultant to FY1-2, ST1-7/CT1-3 then thing ST4+ then consultant there was no mention of FY3 and clinical fellow (junior or otherwise) was a post to keep up clinical skills while completing a PhD or other research.
There were also clinical fellows and trust doctors who were internationally qualified who would come to UK for training in specific skills but would tend to return to their home country to complete their general training.
Btw I have worked in med schools, teaching hospitals and have medic DC's. The whole set up is a shame for would be medics hoping to make a career.

Needmoresleep · 18/02/2025 17:45

Annoyeddd · 18/02/2025 17:43

A rose by any other name....... In real terms they are exactly the same and aren't officially residents (they may do long hours but do not actually reside at the hospital).
When they changed the system from HO, SHO, reg, SR then consultant to FY1-2, ST1-7/CT1-3 then thing ST4+ then consultant there was no mention of FY3 and clinical fellow (junior or otherwise) was a post to keep up clinical skills while completing a PhD or other research.
There were also clinical fellows and trust doctors who were internationally qualified who would come to UK for training in specific skills but would tend to return to their home country to complete their general training.
Btw I have worked in med schools, teaching hospitals and have medic DC's. The whole set up is a shame for would be medics hoping to make a career.

This may explain why I and others get confused!

Thanks for the explanation. I though resident was something out of Grays Anatomy or House.

OP posts:
HostessTrolley · 18/02/2025 17:53

I just read a post on Twitter this afternoon from a med student saying that their faculty today told their entire year group to look at career options outside of medicine after graduation because (to quote the post) 'when it comes to speciality training, there are simply no jobs'

Auchencar · 18/02/2025 17:54

HostessTrolley · 18/02/2025 17:53

I just read a post on Twitter this afternoon from a med student saying that their faculty today told their entire year group to look at career options outside of medicine after graduation because (to quote the post) 'when it comes to speciality training, there are simply no jobs'

HostessTrolley are you able to see which uni this was?

I wonder if it was a formal email send to the entire cohort or a comment by a single tutor at a cohort wide meeting? Tutors can sometimes go rogue. A formal email would be of much more weight.

mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 17:58

@HostessTrolley this one ?

AIBU to be angry that Government policy means young doctors, nurses and other HCPs cannot find jobs
mumsneedwine · 18/02/2025 18:00

@Annoyeddd I think it was the term junior that annoyed doctors, because they were called that until a consultant. Resident doctors was decided as the new name - but I agree, they are never allowed to be resident anywhere for v long.

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