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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am I right to fight back here (employment issue)?

102 replies

Thepek · 13/02/2025 19:43

Been with a law firm for almost 10 years. A year ago almost to the day I returned from maternity leave, DD is nearly 2. In the last year I’ve had 3 managers (constant changes in management which now seem to have settled), had some underhand stuff go on with a colleague trying to take work/arrange meetings behind my back which I raised with HR as I was so upset at the time but nothing was done and have not been included in pay review since my return from mat leave despite all my team having pay rises. I’ve not felt like I had any continuity or direction since being back.

Anyway in October I had a first meeting with the third (and seemingly final) change to my line manager. They said it had seemed a bit like I was trying to get to grips with things when I came back from mat leave but that things were very much in the right direction and they were pleased with moving forward into the next year and explained all the plans for the team that they wanted me to be involved with etc. In that meeting I specifically asked about performance and was told there were no issues with my performance at all.

Unfortunately in January I was unwell (for the first time in 7 years!) and off sick for two weeks. New manager was annoyed I had contacted HR rather than them directly when off sick and I explained that I had done that because I thought that was the correct procedure. It was a bit awkward and he seemed to be making a point. So, fast forward to the next catch up meeting which happened last week and I’m told that actually there’s serious concerns with my performance and that if I don’t sort it out within 4 weeks then HR will be brought in and I will have a formalised performance review. Obviously I asked to examples and he said I hadn’t saved documents to the right file site, I had made spelling mistakes (spelled February wrong on a document that I didn’t realise didn’t have spell check so it seemed it was correct) and that I hadn’t included the right documents in a list for a hearing. I asked for more examples and he said he didn’t want to go through that but he did have a list. He then said he thought I had lots of leeway since returning from mat leave and perhaps my focus was elsewhere or maybe I wanted to look to work somewhere else. I was pretty taken aback by all this and asked him to confirm if this was a formal procedure and he just said no, it would become formal in a month if no change. He said he would send me some objectives by the end of this week.

I honestly don’t know what to make of it. I never really gelled with him much but I didn’t dislike him. I get the strong sense he wants me to leave and now have zero confidence that he wants me to stay, it seems he is waiting to get HR involved. He said I could speak to HR if I wanted for ‘support.’ What I don’t understand is why he didn’t pull up these things at the time? Why leave it as if all was well then suddenly say this? I want to leave but in my own time and now feel pushed out.

OP posts:
sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 · 14/02/2025 10:47

Thepek · 14/02/2025 10:38

@rwalker i thought it was usual to go via HR

What does it say in the employee handbook?

Thepek · 14/02/2025 11:00

sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 · 14/02/2025 10:47

What does it say in the employee handbook?

@sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 no idea as it’s the first time I’ve been off in several years!

OP posts:
Tiredofallthis101 · 14/02/2025 11:03

If you aren't sacked then your next employer shouldn't find out about you being on a PIP. I agree with pps - create a contemporeanous record of his comments about your home life which feel possibly discriminatory. Email them to yourself so they are time logged. Note any errors he makes, retaining evidence where possible, and compare them. DON'T resign - they will have to offer you a settlement if they can't evidence poor performance and your manager tries to push you out anyway. In the meantime though I'd look around at other job options in case something good comes up, as realistically unless this guy moves on you are unlikely to want to stay long term.

Ciri · 14/02/2025 11:52

For goodness sake people.

This is a law firm. The OP is a lawyer and not a trainee lawyer either. She has made a potentially very serious error and the manager says there are other errors. They are to be discussed in a meeting.

Literally nobody can advise with any degree of certainty from what the OP has said as to whether there might be valid grounds to put her on a performance management plan. Certainly if a mid level lawyer made that sort of mistake in any of the firms I have worked in I would potentially expect some level of performance management and for the manager to be very much less than impressed. It will entirely depend on the nature and frequency of all of the errors made and whether they are "typo" type mistakes (even if they are this is not acceptable if they are frequent) or whether they are more substantive, when they were spotted etc.

sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 · 14/02/2025 12:06

Thepek · 14/02/2025 11:00

@sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 no idea as it’s the first time I’ve been off in several years!

I'd take a look if I were you. It might be one of the issues they raise with you at your next meeting

I've not heard of ringing HR to confirm that you'll be off sick although if its not policy at your firm, you'd expect HR to have told you when you called in sick

ThinWomansBrain · 14/02/2025 12:15

agree with @CoffeeFluff
I've done some disciplinaries over the years - but if the biggest thing he can give as an example of poor performance is that February was spelt incorrectly!??

HundredMilesAnHour · 14/02/2025 12:45

This reply has been hidden

This reply has been hidden until the MNHQ team can have a look at it.

CoffeeFluff · 14/02/2025 12:45

I’ll add that whilst the hearing bundle may be a serious error, if it is a one-time thing, it’s not a reason to go onto PIP.

To answer your earlier question, a new employer would not necessarily find out you were on a PIP, you could find out from HR whether your company provides detailed or standard references for peace of mind. Standard means just start date / end date / job title. Please be aware that if you ask HR this, they will possibly tell him you asked about it.

Please also be aware that YOU are allowed to suggest a settlement. Don’t you dare resign and walk away with nothing after 10 years!!!!

I would wait to see what comes of the “formal HR” threat. Usually, a Without Prejudice (settlement) conversation takes place discreetly under the guise of some other meeting. I would imagine that they will use the first “PIP discussion” meeting to make you a discreet settlement offer. Don’t make any rash decisions until you’ve got all their cards on the table.

Thepek · 14/02/2025 14:04

Ciri · 14/02/2025 11:52

For goodness sake people.

This is a law firm. The OP is a lawyer and not a trainee lawyer either. She has made a potentially very serious error and the manager says there are other errors. They are to be discussed in a meeting.

Literally nobody can advise with any degree of certainty from what the OP has said as to whether there might be valid grounds to put her on a performance management plan. Certainly if a mid level lawyer made that sort of mistake in any of the firms I have worked in I would potentially expect some level of performance management and for the manager to be very much less than impressed. It will entirely depend on the nature and frequency of all of the errors made and whether they are "typo" type mistakes (even if they are this is not acceptable if they are frequent) or whether they are more substantive, when they were spotted etc.

@Ciri thanks for your view. Do you not think it strange he didn’t mention this between the first review which was fine and this latest second one, though? Isn’t it preferable to mention things as they come up if they are considered to be such a big issue? I had no idea he was going to raise the prospect of a PIP

OP posts:
Thepek · 14/02/2025 14:06

CoffeeFluff · 14/02/2025 12:45

I’ll add that whilst the hearing bundle may be a serious error, if it is a one-time thing, it’s not a reason to go onto PIP.

To answer your earlier question, a new employer would not necessarily find out you were on a PIP, you could find out from HR whether your company provides detailed or standard references for peace of mind. Standard means just start date / end date / job title. Please be aware that if you ask HR this, they will possibly tell him you asked about it.

Please also be aware that YOU are allowed to suggest a settlement. Don’t you dare resign and walk away with nothing after 10 years!!!!

I would wait to see what comes of the “formal HR” threat. Usually, a Without Prejudice (settlement) conversation takes place discreetly under the guise of some other meeting. I would imagine that they will use the first “PIP discussion” meeting to make you a discreet settlement offer. Don’t make any rash decisions until you’ve got all their cards on the table.

@CoffeeFluff the weird thing about the bundle was that he had done the initial draft and it was wrong too. I feel really unwell today and can’t face it all at the moment. I’m just so shocked it has come to this. My worry with a settlement is that they would then perhaps pay x amount but terminate my employment more or less immediately which then looks like I have a gap in employment? I want to remain employed even if not actively working for at least my notice period. Is this even possible?

OP posts:
Thepek · 14/02/2025 14:06

sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 · 14/02/2025 12:06

I'd take a look if I were you. It might be one of the issues they raise with you at your next meeting

I've not heard of ringing HR to confirm that you'll be off sick although if its not policy at your firm, you'd expect HR to have told you when you called in sick

@sugarspiceandeverythingnice12 hr said to update them, no mention of my manager. I even asked them on one of the calls.

OP posts:
Sansan18 · 14/02/2025 14:22

HamptonPlace · 14/02/2025 09:36

HR will not help, they are not your friends. Will always side with the line manager. Their job is solely to try to ensure the company acts within the letter of the law, which very much favours employers. So just to assist them in covering their arses. It's a bleak truth but if they are threatening a formal review, their WILL be a formal review, and HR will ensure the manager's desired outcome (i.e. you leaving) will be assured. If that become clear if, say, the first week of the performance review says unsatisfactory, you are much better off jumping than being pushed. See how the next month + first review meeting goes and, if the direction of travel is clear. Jump

Absolutely, hr are really not your friends and proceed with caution around contacting them.

Ciri · 14/02/2025 16:02

Thepek · 14/02/2025 14:04

@Ciri thanks for your view. Do you not think it strange he didn’t mention this between the first review which was fine and this latest second one, though? Isn’t it preferable to mention things as they come up if they are considered to be such a big issue? I had no idea he was going to raise the prospect of a PIP

I think that you know as well as I do the expectations of lawyers. They are expected to be very careful and pay attention to detail. A few careless mistakes will be overlooked but there will very quickly be a tipping point and doing things like putting the wrong documents into a bundle and also potentially not filing documents correctly (which can have very significant consequences in a law firm if they cannot then be located and file records are not complete) are certainly potentially enough for a more senior lawyer to recommend a performance management plan (whether formal or informal). Its a tough environment and in most cases you will be far better to jump ship before you are pushed since lawyers talk and once you have a reputation for being careless or not intellectually up to the job then that is difficult to shake.

Personally I'd be looking for another job asap and then making an approach to them to see whether they will enter into an agreed exit with a settlement but I wouldn't for one moment be shouting discrimination etc as others have suggested on this thread since that reputation will follow you locally for a very long time. I know others will say it shouldn't, but it will. I have worked primarily in a large city for most of my legal career so you would think there is a good degree of anonymity but I can name loads of lawyers who are "to be avoided" if their CV lands on your desk.

Thepek · 14/02/2025 16:06

Ciri · 14/02/2025 16:02

I think that you know as well as I do the expectations of lawyers. They are expected to be very careful and pay attention to detail. A few careless mistakes will be overlooked but there will very quickly be a tipping point and doing things like putting the wrong documents into a bundle and also potentially not filing documents correctly (which can have very significant consequences in a law firm if they cannot then be located and file records are not complete) are certainly potentially enough for a more senior lawyer to recommend a performance management plan (whether formal or informal). Its a tough environment and in most cases you will be far better to jump ship before you are pushed since lawyers talk and once you have a reputation for being careless or not intellectually up to the job then that is difficult to shake.

Personally I'd be looking for another job asap and then making an approach to them to see whether they will enter into an agreed exit with a settlement but I wouldn't for one moment be shouting discrimination etc as others have suggested on this thread since that reputation will follow you locally for a very long time. I know others will say it shouldn't, but it will. I have worked primarily in a large city for most of my legal career so you would think there is a good degree of anonymity but I can name loads of lawyers who are "to be avoided" if their CV lands on your desk.

@Ciri thanks. I suppose I don’t know how to position a settlement if I can’t raise any sort of discrimination. I was actually just going to say I don’t feel I’ve been supported since being back (which is true and there’s a paper trial of me raising this) and then just say I don’t feel now I can proceed in this team and suggest a settlement. Surely they wouldn’t talk about it if that happened? It’s so stressful and I just want to leave now.

OP posts:
Redburnett · 14/02/2025 16:31

It is understandable to some extent, but I think you might be catastrophising at this stage. It sounds as though you need to just focus better at work and check your work thoroughly. If there is any way you can meet your billing target do so as that is likely a key measure of your performance.
And just in case you are put on a PIP make sure you have downloaded all relevant company polices (including sickness absence/reporting policy, and all performance, disciplinary, attendance policies, EO, grievance etc etc) they may be useful later. Also download relevant evidence such as your LM also making mistakes with bundles.
And apply common sense in future - no manager wants to find out their team member is off sick from someone in HR, they want to hear it from the employee. If you go off sick you will make your position worse.
Good luck, I hope it works out OK for you.

Thepek · 14/02/2025 16:34

Redburnett · 14/02/2025 16:31

It is understandable to some extent, but I think you might be catastrophising at this stage. It sounds as though you need to just focus better at work and check your work thoroughly. If there is any way you can meet your billing target do so as that is likely a key measure of your performance.
And just in case you are put on a PIP make sure you have downloaded all relevant company polices (including sickness absence/reporting policy, and all performance, disciplinary, attendance policies, EO, grievance etc etc) they may be useful later. Also download relevant evidence such as your LM also making mistakes with bundles.
And apply common sense in future - no manager wants to find out their team member is off sick from someone in HR, they want to hear it from the employee. If you go off sick you will make your position worse.
Good luck, I hope it works out OK for you.

@Redburnett thanks for posting. From what ive read a PIP means it’s over basically… why do you think going off sick will make it worse?

OP posts:
CoffeeFluff · 14/02/2025 16:52

You can negotiate in a settlement that you’d like to be put on garden leave rather than immediately terminated. So, for example, if you are on 3 months notice and you will get that plus a tax-free settlement payment (let’s say another 3-6 months of gross pay) then you can ask them to pay the notice bit each month as normal, and the rest of it comes to you at the end as a lump sum.

CoffeeFluff · 14/02/2025 16:53

Oh, and your basis for raising the suggestion of a settlement is that you believe you are being unfairly performance managed out as the grounds for underperformance are very weak.

Thepek · 14/02/2025 18:53

CoffeeFluff · 14/02/2025 16:53

Oh, and your basis for raising the suggestion of a settlement is that you believe you are being unfairly performance managed out as the grounds for underperformance are very weak.

@CoffeeFluff I wasn’t going to say it like that but just list the issues I have had since mat leave and how they weren’t resolved despite me trying. I wasn’t really going to ‘claim’ anything. But I guess I may not get anywhere with a list. I feel so anxious that I need more time to think and I can only do that going off sick. I just don’t know.

OP posts:
Thepek · 14/02/2025 19:57

I just don’t see a way back from this now

OP posts:
Ciri · 15/02/2025 06:10

Youre a lawyer. You’re clearly smart. Turn this into a positive rather than a negative. Start looking for a new position now and get ahead of them.

CoffeeFluff · 15/02/2025 07:40

I agree. You’re in a position of power, in my opinion. I see two options:

  • You’re put on a PIP - just prove them wrong by doing a good job and it’s over.
  • You’re offered a settlement - in which case drive the highest amount you can and have a fresh start somewhere else with a great financial buffer.

Stop worrying and start thinking about what you actually want.

If you’re open to sharing your salary and notice period here, I can suggest a reasonable settlement package (but understand if not).

Tiredofallthis101 · 15/02/2025 07:46

If you feel you need a day off sick to think it through that's probably not as bad as a linger period of absence. But can you get DH to take DC out today so you can do your thinking time instead?

Based on what others have said above re lawyers I agree maybe it is best to approach the settlement yourself directly with manager and HR - grounds for PIP insufficient, not raised before, your work has otherwise been stellar. Even if you don't directly mention discrimination you could also mention your manager seems to be fixated on the idea that your post-maternity status and having a small child is affecting your work. They should know what you mean by that but it's maybe less direct.

eurochick · 15/02/2025 08:01

Spend the weekend getting your ducks in a row. Update your CV and LinkedIn. Contact agents. Make a record for yourself of all the comments about being focussed on home life and points like him putting together the first draft on the bundle he is complaining about. Basically get ready for the fight back but be realistic that this is going to end up with you leaving.

I'm sorry this is happening to you. As a former law firm partner I have seen similar. It's a horrible process so try to take care of yourself through it. Focus on the future and finding a new role.

millymollymoomoo · 15/02/2025 08:14

Sorry but going off suck is a highly unprofessional move and quite frankly dick move

sorry you’re having a hard time but you’re supposed to be a lawyer? Start acting like one .

i agree that notifying hr not your mgr re sick was off , at the very least it is courtesy to tell your boss , that’s common sense even if ‘policy’ states hr.

some if the errors you refer to could havevl repercussions so you need to hold yourself to account for those

a pip will need to be agreed with you - ie what performance improvements they expect, how to improve, how to measure, what review process will be, what support you will get. It will be detailed. It doesn’t mean an automatic out. I’ve put people on them, they’ve used it as a kick up the arse and actually turned things around to their credit.

and if at the end you are terminated there will be a settlement and any future employers won’t know of the circumstances of your exit.

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